non-ieeee compliant channeled AP's

syn-ack · 09-13-2005

Recently came across an AP that was using channels _not_ on the IEEE list of channels of 802.11A. Has anyone started to look at the HAL to see about adding channels? I guess the requirement would drive the solution...need ability to collect packets and pass them to kismet from APs operating on non standard channels.

thanks!

-+= Syn Ack +=-

Roy_M · 09-15-2005

HAL?

You do know that different countries get different channel no's and allocations. For the 5.8Ghz region people in the US are suposed to get 8 non-overlapping channels for LAN use and an extra 4 non-overlapping channels for WAN point to point links.

How many channels are you being given and on which frequency are the non-IEEE channels based. What is the Vendor?

Quote:

need ability to collect packets and pass them to kismet from APs operating on non standard channels.

I'm no kismet guru but i would think that your client card would also need to be programmed to be able to scan on these non-IEEE channels too. Perhaps client cards from the same vendor might help.

Roy_M · 09-16-2005

This might be of interest and explain your excess channels in the 5.8Ghz spectrum.

Quote:

The Federal Communications Commission (FCC) has already completed the process of rulemaking that would allow 802.11a products with 802.11h-based mitigation measures to operate in the 5.470-to-5.725-GHz band. Having an additional 255 MHz of spectrum means that 24 non-interfering channels are now available for use by 802.11a products in the U.S. By comparison, the 2.4-GHz band only has a total of three non-overlapping channels.

http://www.wsdmag.com/Articles/ArticleID/7915/7915.html

If you AP is new and says it is .11h compliant you probably have 24 channels. cool huh

.

syn-ack · 09-16-2005

When I looked at the channels, they were not part of the new channels, most of the channels were within 1 or 2 of the approved channels. (ie. the ap used 53 and the ieee 802.11a channel was 54) I also checked the EMEA and Japan channels, it was not using them too.
I know that the WIDS vendor that was there, tuned their junk to the off channels too, but they were not talking... (typical)

Most cards are softwar controlled, but it is (I think) controlled by the HAL and kernel vice drivers...If anyone has better gouge...give it up! Would like to use the Madwifi for this requirment,and stay away from others...rumor has it the the old..._old_ ar5k may be the answer.

Thanks to all.

Roy_M · 09-18-2005

I think .11h uses a mechanism called DFS to dynamically agree upon a channel to use. I have no idea how this works or what happens to other clients that are communicating on the channel. Do they all get moved?

syn-ack: perhaps you have a pre .11h AP? Similar all of the pre-n MIMO devices around at the moment that are based very loosely on what the standard might be. Perhaps the manufacturers of your AP heard about the .11h standard and made guesses about what the new supported channels might be? Keep in mind that is a big stab in the dark.

Anyone know if .11h is a software upgrade like WEP -> WPA or a hardware upgrade like RC4 -> AES?

Cheers

ntstumbl · 10-09-2005

Hi, some AP software allows access to ALL the channels the card is capable of ,some cards can go from 4.9 to almost 6 Ghz...

streaker69 · 10-09-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by ntstumbl

Hi, some AP software allows access to ALL the channels the card is capable of ,some cards can go from 4.9 to almost 6 Ghz...

Are you speaking of cards in the 802.11a spec?

Can you cite examples and sources for your information?

Roy_M · 10-09-2005

802.11j which was designed for use in Japan uses lower frequencies. However the Japanese wanted their cards to be useable in the rest of the world as well hence I believe the Jap cards are capabe of a range of frequencies. However, the entire range cannot be used at the same time.

wrzwaldo · 10-09-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roy_M

802.11j which was designed for use in Japan uses lower frequencies. However the Japanese wanted their cards to be useable in the rest of the world as well hence I believe the Jap cards are capabe of a range of frequencies. However, the entire range cannot be used at the same time.

802.11j does not go up to 6GHz.

http://grouper.ieee.org/groups/802/1...tgj_update.htm

Of course "almost" as stated in this post may have taken into account that 802.11a tops out at 5.850GHz.

Roy_M · 10-09-2005

well no, 802.11j is the 4.9 - 5 Ghz region. Additionally .11h compliant gear now allows the use of 24 channels in Europe. However, your correct, I think even with .11h, spectrum usage is still in the 5.8 Ghz band.

Do you think he could be talking of a card that encompasses both of these requirements?

I understand your point, i didnt assume he was talking about one contiguous band from 4.9 - 6 Ghz.

Interesting document you posted, I didnt realise that different countries used completely different frequencies. I always assumed they just allowed different numbers of channels

wrzwaldo · 10-09-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roy_M

well no, 802.11j is the 4.9 - 5 Ghz region. Additionally .11h compliant gear now allows the use of 24 channels in Europe. However, your correct, I think even with .11h, spectrum usage is still in the 5.8 Ghz band.

Do you think he could be talking of a card that encompasses both of these requirements?

I would imagine so.

09-13-2005	#1 (permalink)
syn-ack Kirchhoff==Woot Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 86	non-ieeee compliant channeled AP's Recently came across an AP that was using channels _not_ on the IEEE list of channels of 802.11A. Has anyone started to look at the HAL to see about adding channels? I guess the requirement would drive the solution...need ability to collect packets and pass them to kismet from APs operating on non standard channels. thanks! -+= Syn Ack +=-

10-09-2005	#10 (permalink)
Roy_M Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 72	well no, 802.11j is the 4.9 - 5 Ghz region. Additionally .11h compliant gear now allows the use of 24 channels in Europe. However, your correct, I think even with .11h, spectrum usage is still in the 5.8 Ghz band. Do you think he could be talking of a card that encompasses both of these requirements? I understand your point, i didnt assume he was talking about one contiguous band from 4.9 - 6 Ghz. Interesting document you posted, I didnt realise that different countries used completely different frequencies. I always assumed they just allowed different numbers of channels Last edited by Roy_M : 10-09-2005 at 07:03 PM.

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09-16-2005	#4 (permalink)
syn-ack Kirchhoff==Woot Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 86	When I looked at the channels, they were not part of the new channels, most of the channels were within 1 or 2 of the approved channels. (ie. the ap used 53 and the ieee 802.11a channel was 54) I also checked the EMEA and Japan channels, it was not using them too. I know that the WIDS vendor that was there, tuned their junk to the off channels too, but they were not talking... (typical) Most cards are softwar controlled, but it is (I think) controlled by the HAL and kernel vice drivers...If anyone has better gouge...give it up! Would like to use the Madwifi for this requirment,and stay away from others...rumor has it the the old..._old_ ar5k may be the answer. Thanks to all.

09-18-2005	#5 (permalink)
Roy_M Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 72	I think .11h uses a mechanism called DFS to dynamically agree upon a channel to use. I have no idea how this works or what happens to other clients that are communicating on the channel. Do they all get moved? syn-ack: perhaps you have a pre .11h AP? Similar all of the pre-n MIMO devices around at the moment that are based very loosely on what the standard might be. Perhaps the manufacturers of your AP heard about the .11h standard and made guesses about what the new supported channels might be? Keep in mind that is a big stab in the dark. Anyone know if .11h is a software upgrade like WEP -> WPA or a hardware upgrade like RC4 -> AES? Cheers

10-09-2005	#6 (permalink)
ntstumbl Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1	Hi, some AP software allows access to ALL the channels the card is capable of ,some cards can go from 4.9 to almost 6 Ghz...

10-09-2005	#8 (permalink)
Roy_M Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 72	802.11j which was designed for use in Japan uses lower frequencies. However the Japanese wanted their cards to be useable in the rest of the world as well hence I believe the Jap cards are capabe of a range of frequencies. However, the entire range cannot be used at the same time.