Ok guys make yourselves useful... I need to know where I can get functionality that these guys put into their app (www.aptilo.com) but for this (www.nocat.net) amount of cash I.E FREE. Preferably in Linux or some other free derivative. So basically, I'm looking for Authentication and access control software whose primary functionality is concentrated on billing, not QOS or differential service.

Thanks,
Roland

Roland

Have you figured out an authentication/billing solution?

There are lots of references to nocatauth - free, runs on linux. There are also lots of 3rd party RADIUS servers, very few of which seem to be at your price point (free).

Key to commercial service is captive portal which enables credit card registration/subscription. Seems like Wayport, Mobilestar, Boingo have gone to some trouble in developing proprietary solutions.

Have you priced the Aptilo solution? There would have to be a large market for a reasonably priced (not necessarily free) access/billing server.

Andy

I'm kind of going to go on and on here, because this post is more for me to get my thoughts down then to comunicate with you Andy, but feel free to reply...

I guess it really depends on what I want to do, and what RADIUS is capable of doing... If it's not obvious I want to set up cells in public places and charge people for usage (just like everyone else). So, let me first say before I continue on and people think I'm crazy, yes I do believe that people will pay for wireless access at their local coffee shop regardless of the existence of community hotspots. Ok, with that said, I don't nessicarily see that the backend has to be as inexpensive as possible, just as long as whatever solution I use has the functionality I need and has the ability to scale. The fact is I'm going to have to buy a very limited amount of backend equipment (and hopefully) a whole lot of access equipment. As far as nocat goes, I can't really tell WHAT they do. The nocat white paper is as useless as my spelling and so is the apparent lack of documentation on their site. All I can get from it, is that there is an authentication service (nocatauth) which is seperate from but works in conjunction with linux wireless routers which use their self-developed proprietary application (wrp) to authenticate wireless clients primarily for access to the network and secondarily for differential service which they probably implement through bandwith throtleing. Thats nice, call me superstitios (and excuse the sarcasm) but I wouldn't in a thousand years put anything but appliances at a customers premises. And since nocatauth doesn't appear to use RADIUS and the throttling functionality is already built into the orinoco outdoor gateways I intend on using, nocatauth looks redundant, uninteropperable with what I'm using and not really what I need. I have an orinoco box in the mail, when it arrives I intend to set it up with cistron RADIUS server, which is free, just to see what I can and can't do. Also another option is going with guys like http://www.hereuare.com/index-how.html , they resale billing services to WISPs, although, I'm sure they probably take quite a bit off the top. These guys http://www.wifimetro.com/about.html use them. I havn't priced aptilo yet, but It looks expensive... I'll let you know on that. Authentication, Autherization, Accounting... RADIUS records start and stop times specifically to calculate usage for billing, so the hooks are their, I'll just have to see what it takes. Another thing that is bugging me is that it appears, you have to install a client if you want to use radius with the orinoco boxes, I was hoping to find a box that would do everything over ssl in a browser window so no client side app would be nessicary?

Check out: http://www.lanroamer.com

Their app is open source. Of course, seems that it is designed so that they provide the backend database, etc., but it might give you some further ideas.

Look under the "LANRoamer Developement (open-source)" link.

Cheers,
Thorn

FreeRadius v. Commercial

Roland.....your freeradius development effort does seem to be the way to go for a small scale, low cost AAA solution....

I looked at lanroamer as Thorn suggested - looks like a hereuare wannabe, though they seem to be offering a gpl development platform, though not clear what it does....

Surf and Sip offers a $500 package desgined for one-off coffee shops, including access point and server...developed their system to use prepaid cards

also spoke with hereuare, and their back-end system is designed to do the whole AAA thing over the Internet for a fee, but they are looking for network ops running at least 35 sites

Avaya makes a $1400 access server (AS-1000) - looks like it does standard radius stuff, good for AAA for existing subscribers (who might come in thru your web site); but if you want to offer ad hoc access via a login redirect, perhaps not a complete solution

no wonder mobilestar and wayport developed their own proprietary solutions

so i think you're on the right path with freeRADIUS...any way i can help....i will continue to research alternatives...

Are you saying that Surf and Sip charges locations $500 to put in an AP? if that is the case do they pay for the dataline, or are the locations expected to do that. What cut of the revenue does the location receive ?

I can't find anything on heruares site about what technology they are using. Do you know if their service is supposed to be RADIUS/802.1x compliant, or are they doing linux based clients as well... You did mention they where doing AAA and I have to assume that if they are trying to combine WISPs together, then they must be using RADIUS.

Wow... Just went to Avaya's site, that thing is horrible, I wouldn't expect that they would look like some fly by night company, andyway the as-1 is the same thing as Lucent orinocos as-1000 (I'm pretty sure) and Orinoco isn't selling the AS-1000 anymore they have a new AS-2000 http://www.orinocowireless.com/template.html?section=m58&page=2085&envelope=94 which I was actually really interested in, but, if you go here ftp://ftp.orinocowireless.com/pub/docs/ORINOCO/MANUALS/AS-2000_Rel218/AS-2000_UG.pdf you'll see that you have to authenticate into the 2000s RADIUS server with their own proprietary client. Now I'm asuming that just getting people to put the pc card in their laptop is going to be difficult, I don't want to make them install clients if at all possible. So I was hoping to find a box that would do authentication over ssl from a web browser, if thats even possible, not sure about that though.

Thanks for your time Andy, and thanks Thorn,
Roland

so SurfandSip has the coffee shop pay for the data line and the $500 license, then the shop gets the ad hoc revenue, and S&S gets the subscription revenue. Nice deal. Of course, the shop could make the ad pricing VERY competitive with subscription, but that gets self defeating, and they still don't OWN the sub.

Believe hereuare can accommodate RADIUS, but their principal auth protocol is different; however they have gotten the AP guys to build in their proprietary hooks...

hope the as-1000 was similar, as Avaya was spun out from Lucent....and having hooks to their own prop client SUCKS (what would one expect...it's a commercial product..duhh)

yes, a box that does:
> client-less AAA
> redirect web page for login, ad hoc and subscription transactions (preferably credit card); promotion for local network operator and others

(believe hereuare DOES do the above, for a fee)

Roland - check out Colubris Networks solution for public hotspots. Their CN3000 will do most (all?) of what you want.

http://www.colubris.com/en/products/CN3000/

<da.nyet>

As far as I can tell from reading the Colubris specs, this box is compatible with RADIUS servers, but does not have one built in.

Appears that the only user authentication the box can do is VPN, which requires pre-installed client software.

So RADIUS or some other AAA development work is still required.....

Roland, how's it going?

Roland

there are a few complete auth "gateways", similar to the AS-2000, but compatible with generic 802.11 hardware

Nomadix makes a Universal Subscriber Gateway, which sits between the access point and broadband modem, does home page redirect to login page, RADIUS client, etc.; looks EXPENSIVE, probably best suited for mult-AP locations such as airports

Planet Technologies is a Taiwanese company offering its Internet Subscriber Gateway, similar functionality to Nomadix box but contains internal probrietary login database as well as RADIUS client....looks like it might be more affordable for small locations....sent them an email so we'll see....

my research suggests that most routers/ap's do NOT include RADIUS clients (Cisco's 350 series does, but these are AP's and not routers, so they don't do DHCP or NAT needed for public access)

Why don't you contact me (andywohl@hotmail.com) so we can put our heads together to find an affordable solution....

i am extremely intrested in this as well. maybe we should set up a mailing list? might be a very attractive topic for discussion.

phatbeats707@hotmail.com

Hi all.

How about that mailinglist thing? The last post is now a few days old, is there a mailing list for this stuff? I'm also interested...

Bye, Mike

I work with Tut Systems for wired broadband, and use the Subscriber Management System. it provides the addressing, auth, and redirection to a web page 4 putting in CC for paid access. I have used it in Apts/Hotels 4 HSIA over Tut's xDSL based systems, and on new Cat5 cabled systems. It is not a free item (approx $2000), but it does take care of all client PC access problems. Will allow clients with static IPs in a different range, access the internet through the box with IP Spoofing.

I am going to try it with a WLAN only install in a small 15 node bed&brkfst next month. the manufacturer will be here for the install. they tell me that it will work w/o a problem. I will post how it goes here.


see the link below
http://tutsystems.com/products/sms_ocs/index.cfm

mnmcomm

Thanks for your input on Tut's offering. So for those of us interested in a commercial hot spot AAA solution, the list looks like this

Colubris (CN 3000) ~ $2K
Nomadix ~ $4K/$5K
Bluesocket ~ $6K
Tut SMS ~ $2K
Avaya ?

Realise that if you plan to implement a large commercial property (hotel), one of these solutions (with a back-end RADIUS-type auth server) will work just fine. But if you care about that ROI issue (especially if you plan to target smaller venues), these expensive boxes will certainly impact your cash flow at this early stage of market development. (Mobilestar -> bankruptcy)

A hosted solution could be a viable alternative, at the expense of revenue share...

HereUAre
NetNearU

At this time I'm not sure if something like Joltage is appropriate for a commercial installation.

Does Tut have a modestly-priced solution for smaller venues?

More to come...

Andy

omts

First: My english is quiet poor ... sorry

... and the treat quiet old... nevertheless here my suggestion:

The L-11 from Elsa (german manufacturer) is able to do everything you guys want to (I think)
... beside the ACCESS POINT you also need the "Public Spot Option". Its just a Firmware upgrade (quit expensive)

All together it costs round about 755€ = ca. 700$

its working great and you can do all the cool stuff:

- webbased authentification
- captive portal functionality
- no properitary login scripts/software

...

Also I'm still looking for another alternative (cheaper)... if someone has a suggestion ... ?!

Bye,

omts