Does channel bonding or "Super G" display in NetStumbler?

bfourney · 09-28-2006

Just curious if and how networks that use channel bonding show up in NetStumbler. I don't have any equipment to test this on, and it would be good to know weather the bonded channels show up or not when I'm troubleshooting interference.

Does it show up as 2 channels with the same SSID? Does the 2nd channel show up at all? Does it depend on the AP chipset, or even the wireless card used with NetStumbler?

brwrdrvr · 09-28-2006

I have never ran across a channel bonded AP. I do think however you are getting confused about the suttle differences in wired networks and wireless networks.

The technology to channel bond in a wired network would be using two different network interfaces to stripe the data across the network. The wireless, from what I have read, would use different frequencies from the 2.4gHz band to up the throughput of the data being transmitted across the network.

I would have to take the guess that you would see one SSID with one channel. As there must be a main channel with a "boost" from another frequency within the 2.4gHz band.

If I am wrong on this, I know one of my friends on the forum will hastily let me know

G8tK33per · 09-28-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by brwrdrvr

If I am wrong on this, I know one of my friends on the forum will hastily let me know

Even if it's NOT Friday.

brwrdrvr · 09-28-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by G8tK33per

Even if it's NOT Friday.

It soon will be.

So I was wrong in what I've read about channel bonding?

streaker69 · 09-28-2006

This might help.

http://focus.ti.com/lit/ml/sply003/s...nnel%20bond%22

Starpoint · 09-28-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by bfourney

Just curious if and how networks that use channel bonding show up in NetStumbler. I don't have any equipment to test this on, and it would be good to know weather the bonded channels show up or not when I'm troubleshooting interference.

Does it show up as 2 channels with the same SSID? Does the 2nd channel show up at all? Does it depend on the AP chipset, or even the wireless card used with NetStumbler?

What you describe sounds like the MIMO (multi in multi out) theory, and NO you do not see 2 channels with the same SSID.
I have a MIMO router and all I see is 1 SSID at my house.

As for connecting to 2 different AP's on different MAC's, its tricky but possible.

bfourney · 09-28-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by streaker69

This might help.

http://focus.ti.com/lit/ml/sply003/s...nnel%20bond%22

Thanks for that - it looks like a handy little reference. I think the name says it all!

bfourney · 09-28-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starpoint

What you describe sounds like the MIMO (multi in multi out) theory, and NO you do not see 2 channels with the same SSID.
I have a MIMO router and all I see is 1 SSID at my house.

I'm familiar with the Linksys/Belkin MIMO and I've seen exactly what you describe - 1 SSID & MAC. I don't think it uses channel bonding though, just mutiple receive/transmit antennas. As I understand it Channel Bonding is a proprietary separate technology that essentially uses 2 adjacent 802.11g channels to effectively double the speed to a thoeretical 108mbps. AFAIK Linksys & Netgear market it as "Speed Booster" or "Super G".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starpoint

As for connecting to 2 different AP's on different MAC's, its tricky but possible.

You mean for instance if you had 2 or more wireless cards and each one connecting to a different AP? Useful as a way for essentially doubling your wireless throughput or simultaneously connecting to different networks?

Dutch · 09-29-2006

@OP
You are thinking about the proprietary "enhancements" to the 802.11g protocol made by Atheros, for higher data throughput (SuperA/G which theoretically gives you 108 mb/s throughput). This proprietary enhancement uses channelbonding in the sense that it utilizes the bandwidth normally allocated to two non-overlapping channels. That means you are locked into using channel 6 as the main channel, otherwise you don't have any non-overlapping channels that you can use for the "downlink".
More information here : http://www.super-g.com/papers.html

Broadcom came up with similar enhancements to boost throughput, and named it "Speedbooster" which should theoretically reach 125 mb/s. Those proprietary enhancements doesn't use channelbonding. This gave cause for the Broadcom based camp to state that Atheros was being a "bad neighbour" bandwidth wise on the Broadcom Speedbooster marketing website http://www.54g.org. Don't mistake the .org domain as meaning that it is an official wifi standards website under the IEEE's or WiFi alliance's auspice.
More information here : http://www.54g.org/white_papers.php

Dutch

Nitecruzr · 10-21-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dutch

@OP
You are thinking about the proprietary "enhancements" to the 802.11g protocol made by Atheros, for higher data throughput (SuperA/G which theoretically gives you 108 mb/s throughput).
More information here : http://www.super-g.com/papers.html

Broadcom came up with similar enhancements to boost throughput, and named it "Speedbooster" which should theoretically reach 125 mb/s.
More information here : http://www.54g.org/white_papers.php

Excellent reads, thanks.

So if my neighbour has a Super G network, will NetStumbler provide me any clues to recognise it as that? And what can we do, when our neighbours networks hog all of the bandwidth?

Starpoint · 10-21-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nitecruzr

Excellent reads, thanks.

So if my neighbour has a Super G network, will NetStumbler provide me any clues to recognise it as that? And what can we do, when our neighbours networks hog all of the bandwidth?

More than likely it will not.

Besides once you have GPS tagged your neighbor's AP, what more interest does it hold for you?

Nitecruzr · 10-21-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starpoint

More than likely it will not.

Besides once you have GPS tagged your neighbor's AP, what more interest does it hold for you?

If I have a client who's getting erratic WiFi performance, knowing that a neighbour is part of the problem is very useful information.

The whole idea of using NetStumbler for a site survey is losing validity, as Super G networks are setup. With Walmart selling WRT54GS, anybody can set one up, and have no idea what chaos they are causing. And MIMO will be worse.

Starpoint · 10-21-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nitecruzr

If I have a client who's getting erratic WiFi performance, knowing that a neighbour is part of the problem is very useful information.

The whole idea of using NetStumbler for a site survey is losing validity, as Super G networks are setup. With Walmart selling WRT54GS, anybody can set one up, and have no idea what chaos they are causing. And MIMO will be worse.

Google for "WiSpy" it might not be your neighbor's AP, but some 2.4 gig phones...

Nitecruzr · 10-21-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starpoint

Google for "WiSpy" it might not be your neighbor's AP, but some 2.4 gig phones...

Yeah. WiSpy rocks. But it costs. NetStumbler can be used remotely, for nothing. Many clients appreciate the latter.

But the phone issue is a good one - thanks.

Starpoint · 10-21-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nitecruzr

Yeah. WiSpy rocks. But it costs. NetStumbler can be used remotely, for nothing. Many clients appreciate the latter.

But the phone issue is a good one - thanks.

If I am understanding your posts, you do this for a living, ergo the purchase of Wispy would be a business expense, and would pay for itself after 1-2 clients.

Alot of regulars in here do Wireless surveys and the tools cost, but if it allows you to do a better survey quicker, then you charge by the JOB and not the hour.

Lets say you charge 200 an hour, take 5 hours, thats 1000 for the job, but then someone who has better tools charges 1000 for the job and does it in 2 hours. He "made" more in less time (2 hours at 500) and probably did a more thorough survey. Guess who the client will recommend to a friend? The guy that took less time and gave a more thorough survey.

09-28-2006	#1 (permalink)
bfourney Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: SoCal, USA Posts: 6	Does channel bonding or "Super G" display in NetStumbler? Just curious if and how networks that use channel bonding show up in NetStumbler. I don't have any equipment to test this on, and it would be good to know weather the bonded channels show up or not when I'm troubleshooting interference. Does it show up as 2 channels with the same SSID? Does the 2nd channel show up at all? Does it depend on the AP chipset, or even the wireless card used with NetStumbler?

09-28-2006	#2 (permalink)
brwrdrvr Cajun from Hell Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Capitol City, Louisiana Posts: 3,776	I have never ran across a channel bonded AP. I do think however you are getting confused about the suttle differences in wired networks and wireless networks. The technology to channel bond in a wired network would be using two different network interfaces to stripe the data across the network. The wireless, from what I have read, would use different frequencies from the 2.4gHz band to up the throughput of the data being transmitted across the network. I would have to take the guess that you would see one SSID with one channel. As there must be a main channel with a "boost" from another frequency within the 2.4gHz band. If I am wrong on this, I know one of my friends on the forum will hastily let me know __________________ Real Linux users write the zeros and ones directly to the hard drive using a refrigerator magnet. ~ bobfunland

09-28-2006	#5 (permalink)
streaker69 Psychic Amish Stumbler Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Virginville, BlueBall, Bird In Hand, Intercourse, Paradise, PA Posts: 12,239	This might help. http://focus.ti.com/lit/ml/sply003/s...nnel%20bond%22 __________________ Treat your gun like your genitals, only whip it out when it's absolutely necessary.

09-29-2006	#9 (permalink)
Dutch Humourless EuroMod. Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: City of Mermaids, Denmark Posts: 6,819	@OP You are thinking about the proprietary "enhancements" to the 802.11g protocol made by Atheros, for higher data throughput (SuperA/G which theoretically gives you 108 mb/s throughput). This proprietary enhancement uses channelbonding in the sense that it utilizes the bandwidth normally allocated to two non-overlapping channels. That means you are locked into using channel 6 as the main channel, otherwise you don't have any non-overlapping channels that you can use for the "downlink". More information here : http://www.super-g.com/papers.html Broadcom came up with similar enhancements to boost throughput, and named it "Speedbooster" which should theoretically reach 125 mb/s. Those proprietary enhancements doesn't use channelbonding. This gave cause for the Broadcom based camp to state that Atheros was being a "bad neighbour" bandwidth wise on the Broadcom Speedbooster marketing website http://www.54g.org. Don't mistake the .org domain as meaning that it is an official wifi standards website under the IEEE's or WiFi alliance's auspice. More information here : http://www.54g.org/white_papers.php Dutch __________________ All your answers are belong to Google. SEARCH DAMMIT! Warning. Warning. Low C8H10N4O2 level detected. Operator halted.... Last edited by Dutch : 09-29-2006 at 02:05 AM.

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