Pimp the Barn, with WiFi-bling (Split from : Help with 1 mile network setup!) - Page 3

ZipperSeven · 03-08-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airstreamer

Spoonfeeder!

Wha!?

The boy did a lot of good reading....I figured he just needed a graphical representation.

Airstreamer · 03-08-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZipperSeven

Wha!?

The boy did a lot of good reading....I figured he just needed a graphical representation.

I was going to get there eventually. If he didn't "stumble" across it on his own.

wrzwaldo · 03-08-2006

I'd of went with this link...

http://www.maokhian.com/wireless/wap11.html

Sleeping Dog · 03-08-2006

One of the reasons that I inserted the part about power boosting is that the last line seemed to be a confirmation of what had been discussed earlier.

The higher power settings do not generally mean higher throughput. But for long links they can mean the difference between a working link and none at all.

My interest in the Sveasoft firmware as a possible addition really has more to do with it appaering to offer additional/enhanced control features. I also understand that increased power=increased heat. Being that the WRT54GS will probably be sealed up in the Rootenna pouch, I wouldn't want it getting any warmer than it already will on a hot Southern Summer day.

I spoke with my best friend earlier today and he has offered to help me with the "radio" part of the setup. I feel fortunate to have an on-site resource like him available. He also owns and knows how to utilize RF diagnostic equipment that the average Joe generally doesn't have on their workbench. Of course, I had to rib him a little by saying, (jokingly), "Well, I guess we'll see if fifteen years of Navy communications and radar experience actually taught you anything."

In polite company I won't repeat what he said, but it was what you might expect from an ex-Navy guy. (It was all good natured though. He's been my best friend since we were 3 years old.)

SD

Airstreamer · 03-08-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeping Dog

One of the reasons that I inserted the part about power boosting is that the last line seemed to be a confirmation of what had been discussed earlier.

The higher power settings do not generally mean higher throughput. But for long links they can mean the difference between a working link and none at all.

My interest in the Sveasoft firmware as a possible addition really has more to do with it appaering to offer additional/enhanced control features. I also understand that increased power=increased heat. Being that the WRT54GS will probably be sealed up in the Rootenna pouch, I wouldn't want it getting any warmer than it already will on a hot Southern Summer day.

I spoke with my best friend earlier today and he has offered to help me with the "radio" part of the setup. I feel fortunate to have an on-site resource like him available. He also owns and knows how to utilize RF diagnostic equipment that the average Joe generally doesn't have on their workbench. Of course, I had to rib him a little by saying, (jokingly), "Well, I guess we'll see if fifteen years of Navy communications and radar experience actually taught you anything."

In polite company I won't repeat what he said, but it was what you might expect from an ex-Navy guy. (It was all good natured though. He's been my best friend since we were 3 years old.)

SD

If this gets moved out of the Newbie Lounge, you'll see how 'polite' it is around here!

You DON'T want to just blindly increase the power. You'll only gain a few dB in ACTUAL intelligence carrying signal. If you need more signal, consider higher gain antennas. If you have to, I would add power by installing a different AP that actually has a higher 'out of the box' output. AT LAST RESORT - install an external to the AP inline amplifier.

Sleeping Dog · 03-09-2006

Earlier in this thread, Streaker 69 suggested that I look at the Rootenna instead of the Yagi's that were on my original list. Thanks to his input, I will be using them instead of the Yagi. With a 14dBi Rootenna at each end, properly aligned and mounted, I should be OK with the stock WRT54gs power settings. (Measured distance from planned mount point on house to planned mount point on barn is 1,123 feet +or- 1 foot.)

I appreciate the links to the graphics wrzwaldo and ZipperSeven, so I did some more investigating and found the SA graphics specific to boosting the WRT54g's here. http://explorer.cyberstreet.com/wrt5...raloutput.html

I'm no mental giant, but it would appear to me that the sideband noise does not really become appreciable until one boosts past the 50 mw setting which is almost twice the 28 mw Linksys default. Using 28 as a baseline, the "noise" seems to increase logrythmically as opposed to being a linear increase.

I reiterate... I presently don't anticipate having to boost the WRT54gs power. I'm hoping that the antennae take care of the range issue. I am really more interested in using the SVEASOFT upgrade for the extra control features that it contains that are not available in the stock Linksys load. However, if even a small power boost becomes necessary, isn't it better "...to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it"?

This installation will be loacated in a hilly part of Tennessee near the Cumberland Plateau. I have to "run a ridge" there just to get cell phone reception. The horse farm is in a valley between two ridges with the nearest community of appreciable size being 25 miles away. At present, I do not anticipate any major interferance issues, ...but hey, I won't know until we get the hardware in place and operational.

Many thanks again to all of you for being part of this "Development Team". I feel like I am getting the best from each team member. I wish that my other business related projects were staffed with people who were equally knowledgable and professional in attitude.

Sleeping Dog

Thorn · 03-09-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeping Dog

... (Measured distance from planned mount point on house to planned mount point on barn is 1,123 feet +or- 1 foot.)
...

However, if even a small power boost becomes necessary, isn't it better "...to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it"?

...

Sleeping Dog

No. It is not better, and you don't need the extra power.

Doing the math on this shows that at 14.5dBm (28mW) and using the 14dB Rootennna at 1/4 mile (1,320 ft), you will still have over 30dB or 100 times the needed power level required to attain a good link. You don't need the extra power.

The ideal with any RF transmission is to do the job with what is needed. No more, no less. Using more than you need introduces Noise into the system, as well as adding extra energy costs, and increases the RF pollution. That raises the Noise Floor for everyone.

That Sveasoft quote about boosting the power is a disservice at best. At the worst it is nothing short of fearmongering to sell their product.

This type of question is exactly the reason, I'm always harping about "doing the math." Without knowing what is needed, people think "more is better" and are willing to boost power levels to enough to fry a hotdog at 10 paces, when a fraction of that is all that's required to do the job.

By the way, don't take my word for it. Feel free to check my figures. There are plenty of RF calculators on the Web. Search for "System Operating Margin" or "SOM" calculators.

streaker69 · 03-09-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thorn

This type of question is exactly the reason, I'm always harping about "doing the math." Without knowing the what is needed, people think "more is better" and are willing to boost power levels to enough to fry a hotdog at 10 paces, when a fraction of that is all that's required to do the job.

Really? This is the first I've heard you say it.

Dutch · 03-09-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by streaker69

Really? This is the first I've heard you say it.

But you've heard him think it many times, right ?

Dutch

streaker69 · 03-09-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dutch

But you've heard him think it many times, right ?

Dutch

I think so. Although it's hard to tune out all the other things that I get at times as well. Keep getting these strange thoughts of beating people with a bat from around the western DC area.

wrzwaldo · 03-09-2006

Quote:

By the way, don't take my word for it. Feel free to check my figures. There are plenty of RF calculators on the Web. Search for "System Operating Margin" or "SOM" calculators.

Here is my spoonfeed for the month of March...

http://www.terabeam.com/support/calculations/

Sleeping Dog · 03-09-2006

Thanks again Thorn. I FULLY appreciate what you are saying. The gear that my best friend has should give us a more commplete picture of true I/O signal strength at both ends once the gear is in place. Who knows? Once we get everything set up, we might even find it improves matters to dial the power DOWN from the stock 28 dBi. If we can do this and still maintain the same throughput even during a downpour, it could minimize the possibility of "sharing" the signal with any wireless neighbors at the other end of the valley.

I believe that we all like the idea of having more control over a piece of gear than just what comes OEM. If we didn't, then we wouldn't soup-up our cars, add graphic equalizers to our stereos or buy third party security software for our computers.

I always liked what my teacher said when I was getting my Handgun Instructor Certification.

"A well placed shot from even a 22 is much more effective than a miss with a 44 Magnum."

Regards to All

SD

Sleeping Dog · 03-09-2006

PS

Thanks for the calculator, waldo.

SD

wrzwaldo · 03-09-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeping Dog

I always liked what my teacher said when I was getting my Handgun Instructor Certification.

"A well placed shot from even a 22 is much more effective than a miss with a 44 Magnum."

Regards to All

SD

That all depends on what you are shooting at.

Sleeping Dog · 03-09-2006

PPS

When I first started my research on this project about a month ago, I came across a link on using a collapsable vegetable steamer to make a home-made,variable focus parabolic beam antenna. (photos included). It was quite funny and it occured to me that with a really kicking transmitter, it could still be used to cook vegetables.... wish I had bookmarked it! If someone else finds it again, please forward it to me.

SD

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03-08-2006	#33 (permalink)
wrzwaldo I amuse you? Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 9,127	I'd of went with this link... http://www.maokhian.com/wireless/wap11.html

03-08-2006	#34 (permalink)
Sleeping Dog Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 76	One of the reasons that I inserted the part about power boosting is that the last line seemed to be a confirmation of what had been discussed earlier. The higher power settings do not generally mean higher throughput. But for long links they can mean the difference between a working link and none at all. My interest in the Sveasoft firmware as a possible addition really has more to do with it appaering to offer additional/enhanced control features. I also understand that increased power=increased heat. Being that the WRT54GS will probably be sealed up in the Rootenna pouch, I wouldn't want it getting any warmer than it already will on a hot Southern Summer day. I spoke with my best friend earlier today and he has offered to help me with the "radio" part of the setup. I feel fortunate to have an on-site resource like him available. He also owns and knows how to utilize RF diagnostic equipment that the average Joe generally doesn't have on their workbench. Of course, I had to rib him a little by saying, (jokingly), "Well, I guess we'll see if fifteen years of Navy communications and radar experience actually taught you anything." In polite company I won't repeat what he said, but it was what you might expect from an ex-Navy guy. (It was all good natured though. He's been my best friend since we were 3 years old.) SD

03-09-2006	#36 (permalink)
Sleeping Dog Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 76	Earlier in this thread, Streaker 69 suggested that I look at the Rootenna instead of the Yagi's that were on my original list. Thanks to his input, I will be using them instead of the Yagi. With a 14dBi Rootenna at each end, properly aligned and mounted, I should be OK with the stock WRT54gs power settings. (Measured distance from planned mount point on house to planned mount point on barn is 1,123 feet +or- 1 foot.) I appreciate the links to the graphics wrzwaldo and ZipperSeven, so I did some more investigating and found the SA graphics specific to boosting the WRT54g's here. http://explorer.cyberstreet.com/wrt5...raloutput.html I'm no mental giant, but it would appear to me that the sideband noise does not really become appreciable until one boosts past the 50 mw setting which is almost twice the 28 mw Linksys default. Using 28 as a baseline, the "noise" seems to increase logrythmically as opposed to being a linear increase. I reiterate... I presently don't anticipate having to boost the WRT54gs power. I'm hoping that the antennae take care of the range issue. I am really more interested in using the SVEASOFT upgrade for the extra control features that it contains that are not available in the stock Linksys load. However, if even a small power boost becomes necessary, isn't it better "...to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it"? This installation will be loacated in a hilly part of Tennessee near the Cumberland Plateau. I have to "run a ridge" there just to get cell phone reception. The horse farm is in a valley between two ridges with the nearest community of appreciable size being 25 miles away. At present, I do not anticipate any major interferance issues, ...but hey, I won't know until we get the hardware in place and operational. Many thanks again to all of you for being part of this "Development Team". I feel like I am getting the best from each team member. I wish that my other business related projects were staffed with people who were equally knowledgable and professional in attitude. Sleeping Dog

03-09-2006	#42 (permalink)
Sleeping Dog Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 76	Thanks again Thorn. I FULLY appreciate what you are saying. The gear that my best friend has should give us a more commplete picture of true I/O signal strength at both ends once the gear is in place. Who knows? Once we get everything set up, we might even find it improves matters to dial the power DOWN from the stock 28 dBi. If we can do this and still maintain the same throughput even during a downpour, it could minimize the possibility of "sharing" the signal with any wireless neighbors at the other end of the valley. I believe that we all like the idea of having more control over a piece of gear than just what comes OEM. If we didn't, then we wouldn't soup-up our cars, add graphic equalizers to our stereos or buy third party security software for our computers. I always liked what my teacher said when I was getting my Handgun Instructor Certification. "A well placed shot from even a 22 is much more effective than a miss with a 44 Magnum." Regards to All SD

03-09-2006	#43 (permalink)
Sleeping Dog Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 76	PS Thanks for the calculator, waldo. SD

03-09-2006	#45 (permalink)
Sleeping Dog Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 76	PPS When I first started my research on this project about a month ago, I came across a link on using a collapsable vegetable steamer to make a home-made,variable focus parabolic beam antenna. (photos included). It was quite funny and it occured to me that with a really kicking transmitter, it could still be used to cook vegetables.... wish I had bookmarked it! If someone else finds it again, please forward it to me. SD