Help with new Wi-Fi network

jimmy1 · 03-29-2005

Hello,

I have had this dropped in my lap to fix and could really use some help.

Here is what I have;

Setting up a wi-fi to share a broadband network connection. Direcway connection is hooked up to a Linksys WRT54G router which is connected to a computer useing Windows 2000 Pro. I have changed the router firmware to the firmware from Hyperwrt, so I can set the Tx/RX antenna and output power. The external antenna is a Hyperlink Tech 15db Omni 2.4Ghz on a 40' tower, connected with LMR-400 cable.

The first Wi-fi station is about 1200 to 1500 ft away with clear line of sight. The station is useing a Hyperlink 12Db yagi antenna connected to a Wrt54G router connected to a computer useing Windows XP.

Problem I have is not signal! Have also tried a Hyperlink 12Db omni antenna at the main site with no change.

Can anyone tell if my setup is wrong (IE wrong equipment) or is in the setup. We have tried several router configurements that we have found over the internet.

Any one willing to help me out ?

Thanks in advance, Jim

Thorn · 03-29-2005

Did someone with RF experience actually design this first or was it just thrown together?
* Have you computed the Link Buget?
* Is the "clear line of sight" true RF LOS?
* Is the FZ clear?
* Typically 12dBi and 15dBi omnidirection antennae have very flat patterns, usually around 5º and 3º respectively. Have you computed if it's overshooting?

Basically, have you done the math?

(FYI: it's "dB", not db or Db.)

jimmy1 · 03-29-2005

Hello Thorn,

I am sure the original person did not have any experience, he said he did and that he did his homework. Now I have a lot of eq. and nothing works.

Tried to find out about Link Buget? Can you direct me to where I can learn what to do.

As far as the line of sight. I can see both antenna's, they are clear of everything nothing between them. We are in the country so there should be no RF los. Both atenna'a are within about 10' of each other in height. Even at 3 degrees it should be fine.

One more thing, I have found software for lap tops that have signal streight meters but have not been able to find one to work with my setup here, any thoughts?

Thanks for taking the time to help,
Jim

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thorn

Did someone with RF experience actually design this first or was it just thrown together?
* Have you computed the Link Buget?
* Is the "clear line of sight" true RF LOS?
* Is the FZ clear?
* Typically 12dBi and 15dBi omnidirection antennae have very flat patterns, usually around 5º and 3º respectively. Have you computed if it's overshooting?

Basically, have you done the math?

(FYI: it's "dB", not db or Db.)

wrzwaldo · 03-29-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmy1

Hello Thorn,

I am sure the original person did not have any experience, he said he did and that he did his homework. Now I have a lot of eq. and nothing works.

Tried to find out about Link Buget? Can you direct me to where I can learn what to do.

As far as the line of sight. I can see both antenna's, they are clear of everything nothing between them. We are in the country so there should be no RF los. Both atenna'a are within about 10' of each other in height. Even at 3 degrees it should be fine.

One more thing, I have found software for lap tops that have signal streight meters but have not been able to find one to work with my setup here, any thoughts?

Thanks for taking the time to help,
Jim

Google comes to mind. You can also look Here.

What does that have to do with the price of rice in china?

Yes

I see a lot of "should" but no numbers to back them up.

beakmyn · 03-29-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by wrzwaldo

Google comes to mind. You can also look Here.

What does that have to do with the price of rice in china?

Yes

I see a lot of "should" but no numbers to back them up.

Quote:

We are in the country so there should be no RF los.

I think he meant that cows are short.

streaker69 · 03-29-2005

There could be RF loss because of all the silent Black Army Helicoptors hovering around, plus all the Cattle Mutilatin' Aliens nearby.

wiresalot · 03-29-2005

Hello Jimmy1

From what you are saying the 40' tower antenae is conected to the wireless router with IMR-400 cable?? IMR-400 seems to have a .19dB loss per foot did you factor that in the footage from the antenae to the router?

Thorn · 03-29-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmy1

Tried to find out about Link Buget? Can you direct me to where I can learn what to do.

There are lots of good calculators out on the web. Try a couple, as they may give slightly different type of information.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmy1

As far as the line of sight. I can see both antenna's, they are clear of everything nothing between them. We are in the country so there should be no RF los.

First off is is not "'RF los" (as in a typographical error on 'loss'.) It is RF-LOS (Radio Frequency Line Of Sight), and that is far different thing than visual Line Of Sight. Just because the you can see from one antenna to the other does not mean the radio signals can actually move between the antennae. This is why I asked you about FZ (Fresnel Zone). That must be clear or no signal will get through.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmy1

Both atenna'a are within about 10' of each other in height. Even at 3 degrees it should be fine.

3º at 1200 ft is pretty narrow. Again, to be sure, you need to do the math.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmy1

One more thing, I have found software for lap tops that have signal streight meters but have not been able to find one to work with my setup here, any thoughts?

You won't find software meter for an AP, or at least I've never seen one. Either get a hardware meter that can be inline ($$$), or swap out each AP for a laptop while you tune the system.

wiresalot · 03-29-2005

it should be +/- 60' at 1200' 3degree ang.

Thorn · 03-29-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiresalot

it should be +/- 60' at 1200' 3degree ang.

What does that mean?

If you are going to continue to post, please read the Welcome Desk threads.

wiresalot · 03-29-2005

From mathematical equations using geometry the spread of a 3 degree angle at 1200 feet would be 63 feet 10 inches. This would be within his 10 foot offset between antenna hights. I do not feel his anteneas are wrong, and the line of site is not the problem, but I feel feeding that type of an antenna thru a LMR-400 cable of a unknown distance (40' tower plus the lenth to the router) with a linksys WRT45G is. The output on the WRT45G is not enough to feed that type of set up. Jimmy1 should think about an in line amplifier at his "main site". Of course being satelite you may have to follow the directions at "http://testmy.net/topic-1480" to host your WAN.

Jimmy1,
I hope this helps you.

wrzwaldo · 03-29-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiresalot

From mathematical equations using geometry the spread of a 3 degree angle at 1200 feet would be 63 feet 10 inches. This would be within his 10 foot offset between antenna hights. I do not feel his anteneas are wrong, and the line of site is not the problem, but I feel feeding that type of an antenna thru a LMR-400 cable of a unknown distance (40' tower plus the lenth to the router) with a linksys WRT45G is. The output on the WRT45G is not enough to feed that type of set up. Jimmy1 should think about an in line amplifier at his "main site". Of course being satelite you may have to follow the directions at "http://testmy.net/topic-1480" to host your WAN.

Jimmy1,
I hope this helps you.

Thats the reason it has been said he needs to "do the math". One could dink around with what if's and should's all day and never get a stable of even working link. Also in one of your earlier posts you said that IMR-400 (you did mean LMR?) has .19db of loss per foot? That seems a little high where did you get that data? the datasheet shows it in the neighborhood of .066 per foot (6.6 per 100 feet). The datasheet show it at 19 per 100 meters.

streaker69 · 03-29-2005

Wiresalot,

That is a good point about the distance with the LMR400 cable and line loss through the cable, but wouldn't it be wiser for him to consider moving his AP to the top of the tower and enclose it in a weather proof box? I've seen pictures of those types of setups and then you wouldn't be introducing yet another piece of hardware to fail, and the potential for noise through the inline amplifier.

wiresalot · 03-29-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by streaker69

Wiresalot,

That is a good point about the distance with the LMR400 cable and line loss through the cable, but wouldn't it be wiser for him to consider moving his AP to the top of the tower and enclose it in a weather proof box? I've seen pictures of those types of setups and then you wouldn't be introducing yet another piece of hardware to fail, and the potential for noise through the inline amplifier.

Yes, That would be the best set up, but I have seen "weather proof" enclosures that were not up to my par and failed any how, I have no idea how much jimmy1 knows on this subject. If we new he was only trying to feed on remote location I would suggest flate panel antennes, but I think he may, In the future decide to add an other(s) remote stations, If not why would he be using an omni directional antenna at his "main site"?

wrzwaldo · 03-29-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiresalot

Yes, That would be the best set up, but I have seen "weather proof" enclosures that were not up to my par and failed any how, I have no idea how much jimmy1 knows on this subject. If we new he was only trying to feed on remote location I would suggest flate panel antennes, but I think he may, In the future decide to add an other(s) remote stations, If not why would he be using an omni directional antenna at his "main site"?

Yet another reason to push doing the math. With amps comes the greater possibility of exceeding the "legal" power limits in the license free ISM bands. And there are different power levels allowed for point-to-point and point-to-multipoint installations.

03-29-2005	#1 (permalink)
jimmy1 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 5	Help with new Wi-Fi network Hello, I have had this dropped in my lap to fix and could really use some help. Here is what I have; Setting up a wi-fi to share a broadband network connection. Direcway connection is hooked up to a Linksys WRT54G router which is connected to a computer useing Windows 2000 Pro. I have changed the router firmware to the firmware from Hyperwrt, so I can set the Tx/RX antenna and output power. The external antenna is a Hyperlink Tech 15db Omni 2.4Ghz on a 40' tower, connected with LMR-400 cable. The first Wi-fi station is about 1200 to 1500 ft away with clear line of sight. The station is useing a Hyperlink 12Db yagi antenna connected to a Wrt54G router connected to a computer useing Windows XP. Problem I have is not signal! Have also tried a Hyperlink 12Db omni antenna at the main site with no change. Can anyone tell if my setup is wrong (IE wrong equipment) or is in the setup. We have tried several router configurements that we have found over the internet. Any one willing to help me out ? Thanks in advance, Jim

03-29-2005	#2 (permalink)
Thorn Did you do the math? Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Villa Straylight Posts: 10,358	Did someone with RF experience actually design this first or was it just thrown together? * Have you computed the Link Buget? * Is the "clear line of sight" true RF LOS? * Is the FZ clear? * Typically 12dBi and 15dBi omnidirection antennae have very flat patterns, usually around 5º and 3º respectively. Have you computed if it's overshooting? Basically, have you done the math? (FYI: it's "dB", not db or Db.) __________________ Thorn "Read Altas Shrugged. Compare it to today. Repeat as necessary"

03-29-2005	#6 (permalink)
streaker69 Psychic Amish Stumbler Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Virginville, BlueBall, Bird In Hand, Intercourse, Paradise, PA Posts: 12,239	There could be RF loss because of all the silent Black Army Helicoptors hovering around, plus all the Cattle Mutilatin' Aliens nearby. __________________ Treat your gun like your genitals, only whip it out when it's absolutely necessary.

03-29-2005	#13 (permalink)
streaker69 Psychic Amish Stumbler Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Virginville, BlueBall, Bird In Hand, Intercourse, Paradise, PA Posts: 12,239	Wiresalot, That is a good point about the distance with the LMR400 cable and line loss through the cable, but wouldn't it be wiser for him to consider moving his AP to the top of the tower and enclose it in a weather proof box? I've seen pictures of those types of setups and then you wouldn't be introducing yet another piece of hardware to fail, and the potential for noise through the inline amplifier. __________________ Treat your gun like your genitals, only whip it out when it's absolutely necessary.

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03-29-2005	#7 (permalink)
wiresalot Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Slightly off center. Posts: 484	Hello Jimmy1 From what you are saying the 40' tower antenae is conected to the wireless router with IMR-400 cable?? IMR-400 seems to have a .19dB loss per foot did you factor that in the footage from the antenae to the router?

03-29-2005	#9 (permalink)
wiresalot Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Slightly off center. Posts: 484	it should be +/- 60' at 1200' 3degree ang.

03-29-2005	#11 (permalink)
wiresalot Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Slightly off center. Posts: 484	From mathematical equations using geometry the spread of a 3 degree angle at 1200 feet would be 63 feet 10 inches. This would be within his 10 foot offset between antenna hights. I do not feel his anteneas are wrong, and the line of site is not the problem, but I feel feeding that type of an antenna thru a LMR-400 cable of a unknown distance (40' tower plus the lenth to the router) with a linksys WRT45G is. The output on the WRT45G is not enough to feed that type of set up. Jimmy1 should think about an in line amplifier at his "main site". Of course being satelite you may have to follow the directions at "http://testmy.net/topic-1480" to host your WAN. Jimmy1, I hope this helps you.