Orinoco solution?

Jerry507 · 09-20-2003

I ran into some problems last night while I was out stumbling and I came up with a solution for what I believe to be the bug everyone talks about...

When I started, my card wasen't detecting any APs even though other laptops in the car were and I couldn't figure out why. The behavior continued when I downloaded the latest version of NS.

I found out that if you create a new profile that has a blank SSID, NS works and picks up stuff normally. The downside is that (I think) it automatically tries to connect every time you find a new AP. However, unless you are stopping or something in order to actually try to connect I don't think it will be a problem since it won't finish before you are out of range.

I hope this helps people, it sure helps me. My university has a lot of APs around with non-standard names (department ones arn't required to use the IASTATE ssid like university ones) so NS was the only way I had to easily connect to APs without changing the profile every time. Plus the department ones arn't put up on maps. Very annoying.

One other thing, this works even if you leave the reconfigure option ON. I guess it's just another solution but it seems easier to me, it seems to get around a lot of the steps everyone here has like turning off tcp/ip and stuff.

Although I bet I'll still get flamed anyway. Oh well.

Thorn · 09-21-2003

Actually, the preferred SSID is "ANY" as per the specifications of the 802.11b Standard. A blank SSID is better than your own or a default, but may not work correctly with all APs that you will come across. This is discussed a lot, and is a common newbie mistake. However, it's good that you're trying different settings.

For routine stumbling, you should still disable TCP/IP (and any other network protocols) for legal reasons. This is because you do not want to actually connect to the network. As has been said many times, actual connection to a network without authorization or permission is illegal. Disabling the networking protocols prevents even an inadvertant connection.

No protocols = no connections = no illegal actions.

Jerry507 · 09-22-2003

Not really a newbie either, I just dropped stumbling for a long time because of college. Then after I needed it again, this annoying problem came up.

And wouldn't associating to an AP still constitute a connection by someone anal enough to actually want to prosecute you? You're still establishing a connection, although not nearly as major as something like TCP.

But then don't you get into varying levels of illegal and it all becomes moot?

gmiller220 · 09-22-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Jerry507
Not really a newbie either, I just dropped stumbling for a long time because of college. Then after I needed it again, this annoying problem came up.

And wouldn't associating to an AP still constitute a connection by someone anal enough to actually want to prosecute you? You're still establishing a connection, although not nearly as major as something like TCP.

But then don't you get into varying levels of illegal and it all becomes moot?

Netstumbler does NOT associate to an ap. It sends out a broadcast request per 802.11 standards and the ap per 802.11 standards responds to that broadcast. Unless the ap has ssid broadcast disabled that is.

Thorn · 09-23-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Jerry507
Not really a newbie either, I just dropped stumbling for a long time because of college. Then after I needed it again, this annoying problem came up.

And wouldn't associating to an AP still constitute a connection by someone anal enough to actually want to prosecute you? You're still establishing a connection, although not nearly as major as something like TCP.

But then don't you get into varying levels of illegal and it all becomes moot?

NS does not associate. Association take place at the client manager level. As gmiller states, it sends out a broadcast request and the AP standards responds. In essence, it merely sends out an "Anybody around?" message and the AP responds "I am. My name is..." That's all.

BTW, I would have any improper network access (wired or wireless) criminally prosecuted in a heartbeat. It isn't anal, it just make sense. It is no different than having a burglar or embezzler prosecuted. Someone has stolen from me, and deserves to be punished.

Jerry507 · 09-23-2003

I realize NS itself does not prompt the card to associate because it has very little interaction with the card at all, but leaving the SSID of your machine set to ANY or blank will still cause the card to connect to the first possible AP.

By anal, I was refering to people would would prosecute you based on the connection established as you're driving by. Obviously we would all try to get someone using our internet connections to download bad stuff, but there are also people out there who would take you to the mat over a DHCP lease, or if they understood, even associating to their AP.

And the association could be considered just as illegal as getting a DHCP lease, or sending a packet over the internet.

gmiller220 · 09-23-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Jerry507
I realize NS itself does not prompt the card to associate because it has very little interaction with the card at all, but leaving the SSID of your machine set to ANY or blank will still cause the card to connect to the first possible AP.

By anal, I was refering to people would would prosecute you based on the connection established as you're driving by. Obviously we would all try to get someone using our internet connections to download bad stuff, but there are also people out there who would take you to the mat over a DHCP lease, or if they understood, even associating to their AP.

And the association could be considered just as illegal as getting a DHCP lease, or sending a packet over the internet.

Hence the reason thorn stated the following:

Quote:

For routine stumbling, you should still disable TCP/IP (and any other network protocols) for legal reasons. This is because you do not want to actually connect to the network. As has been said many times, actual connection to a network without authorization or permission is illegal. Disabling the networking protocols prevents even an inadvertant connection.

No protocols = no connections = no illegal actions.

Jerry507 · 09-23-2003

Disabling TCP/IP isn't going to stop your card from associating.

G8tK33per · 09-23-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Jerry507
Disabling TCP/IP isn't going to stop your card from associating.

Obviously, judging by your tenure on this planet, you've become a networking genius.

Go play somewhere else, junior.

gmiller220 · 09-23-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Jerry507
Disabling TCP/IP isn't going to stop your card from associating.

HA HA HA HA HA HA

Jerry507 · 09-24-2003

Woah, I've obviously stepped into the alpha males den or something. I didn't mean to be offensive I was just simply stating that disabling tcp/ip won't stop your card from associating with an AP.

This is how it works with my card/laptop, a C600 running 2k pro with an orinoco gold. Why would disabling a software protocol stop the hardware level stuff from doing it's job? If you disable tcp/ip on a network card in your computer, can you still not use the myriad of other protocols that exist that don't use it?

If I pissed ANYONE off, I'm sorry. It wasen't my intention. I just wanted to point out that a connection exists anyway, and atleast with Windows, the client software will still connect automatically whenever it finds an AP with a strong enough signal.

TheSovereign · 09-24-2003

ok real quick lesson in networking
ok its the network card priority to associate
EVEN IF THE CLIENT MANAGER ISNT LOADED!
the card will simply associate this is out of your control and i doubt u can be charged

disabling your tcp/ip is just a way of making sure nothing is injected or recieved into a network that isnt yours

Jerry507 · 09-24-2003

I realize that, the only reason I pointed it out was Thorn said someone accessing your network (with TCP/IP on) was the same as someone plugging in.

I was merely saying that if you went by the standard of plugging in, then the association process would be just as illegal.

Though I guess it's quite moot when you consider 99.999999% of the people out there have no way of telling if you associated or not.

--edit--
I wonder if nix OS's automatically associate....

gmiller220 · 09-24-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Jerry507
I realize that, the only reason I pointed it out was Thorn said someone accessing your network (with TCP/IP on) was the same as someone plugging in.

I was merely saying that if you went by the standard of plugging in, then the association process would be just as illegal.

Though I guess it's quite moot when you consider 99.999999% of the people out there have no way of telling if you associated or not.

--edit--
I wonder if nix OS's automatically associate....

Nope. Nix is a bitch to configure but once you get it going it's all right. (Redhat 9 makes it easy to connect your wireless nic though but no auto association) Plus kismet is great because it's a passive scanner meaning it doesn't send out any requests it just sits there and listens.

Youbecha · 09-30-2003

Uh, back to the subject.

I can't speak for all cards, but mine (Dell Truemobile 1150 Orinoco Gold rebadge) also has the client software that needs to have a default mode..

The rest of the story is that the client manager should NOT be running while stumbling, or it will try to log into networks it sees.

In fact I never run the client software unless I need to change the settings (like from stumbling to networking).

That should solve at least part of one problem.

09-20-2003	#1 (permalink)
Jerry507 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Urbandale or Ames, IA Posts: 7	Orinoco solution? I ran into some problems last night while I was out stumbling and I came up with a solution for what I believe to be the bug everyone talks about... When I started, my card wasen't detecting any APs even though other laptops in the car were and I couldn't figure out why. The behavior continued when I downloaded the latest version of NS. I found out that if you create a new profile that has a blank SSID, NS works and picks up stuff normally. The downside is that (I think) it automatically tries to connect every time you find a new AP. However, unless you are stopping or something in order to actually try to connect I don't think it will be a problem since it won't finish before you are out of range. I hope this helps people, it sure helps me. My university has a lot of APs around with non-standard names (department ones arn't required to use the IASTATE ssid like university ones) so NS was the only way I had to easily connect to APs without changing the profile every time. Plus the department ones arn't put up on maps. Very annoying. One other thing, this works even if you leave the reconfigure option ON. I guess it's just another solution but it seems easier to me, it seems to get around a lot of the steps everyone here has like turning off tcp/ip and stuff. Although I bet I'll still get flamed anyway. Oh well. Last edited by Jerry507 : 09-20-2003 at 08:16 PM.

09-21-2003	#2 (permalink)
Thorn Did you do the math? Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Villa Straylight Posts: 10,361	Not a flame, but... Actually, the preferred SSID is "ANY" as per the specifications of the 802.11b Standard. A blank SSID is better than your own or a default, but may not work correctly with all APs that you will come across. This is discussed a lot, and is a common newbie mistake. However, it's good that you're trying different settings. For routine stumbling, you should still disable TCP/IP (and any other network protocols) for legal reasons. This is because you do not want to actually connect to the network. As has been said many times, actual connection to a network without authorization or permission is illegal. Disabling the networking protocols prevents even an inadvertant connection. No protocols = no connections = no illegal actions. __________________ Thorn "Read Altas Shrugged. Compare it to today. Repeat as necessary"

09-24-2003	#12 (permalink)
TheSovereign Master of the universe Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: chicago Posts: 658	ok real quick lesson in networking ok its the network card priority to associate EVEN IF THE CLIENT MANAGER ISNT LOADED! the card will simply associate this is out of your control and i doubt u can be charged disabling your tcp/ip is just a way of making sure nothing is injected or recieved into a network that isnt yours __________________ SO SAYS TheSovereign

09-24-2003	#13 (permalink)
Jerry507 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Urbandale or Ames, IA Posts: 7	I realize that, the only reason I pointed it out was Thorn said someone accessing your network (with TCP/IP on) was the same as someone plugging in. I was merely saying that if you went by the standard of plugging in, then the association process would be just as illegal. Though I guess it's quite moot when you consider 99.999999% of the people out there have no way of telling if you associated or not. --edit-- I wonder if nix OS's automatically associate.... Last edited by Jerry507 : 09-24-2003 at 08:05 PM.

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09-22-2003	#3 (permalink)
Jerry507 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Urbandale or Ames, IA Posts: 7	Not really a newbie either, I just dropped stumbling for a long time because of college. Then after I needed it again, this annoying problem came up. And wouldn't associating to an AP still constitute a connection by someone anal enough to actually want to prosecute you? You're still establishing a connection, although not nearly as major as something like TCP. But then don't you get into varying levels of illegal and it all becomes moot?

09-23-2003	#6 (permalink)
Jerry507 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Urbandale or Ames, IA Posts: 7	I realize NS itself does not prompt the card to associate because it has very little interaction with the card at all, but leaving the SSID of your machine set to ANY or blank will still cause the card to connect to the first possible AP. By anal, I was refering to people would would prosecute you based on the connection established as you're driving by. Obviously we would all try to get someone using our internet connections to download bad stuff, but there are also people out there who would take you to the mat over a DHCP lease, or if they understood, even associating to their AP. And the association could be considered just as illegal as getting a DHCP lease, or sending a packet over the internet.

09-23-2003	#8 (permalink)
Jerry507 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Urbandale or Ames, IA Posts: 7	Disabling TCP/IP isn't going to stop your card from associating.

09-24-2003	#11 (permalink)
Jerry507 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Urbandale or Ames, IA Posts: 7	Woah, I've obviously stepped into the alpha males den or something. I didn't mean to be offensive I was just simply stating that disabling tcp/ip won't stop your card from associating with an AP. This is how it works with my card/laptop, a C600 running 2k pro with an orinoco gold. Why would disabling a software protocol stop the hardware level stuff from doing it's job? If you disable tcp/ip on a network card in your computer, can you still not use the myriad of other protocols that exist that don't use it? If I pissed ANYONE off, I'm sorry. It wasen't my intention. I just wanted to point out that a connection exists anyway, and atleast with Windows, the client software will still connect automatically whenever it finds an AP with a strong enough signal.

09-30-2003	#15 (permalink)
Youbecha Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 29	Uh, back to the subject. I can't speak for all cards, but mine (Dell Truemobile 1150 Orinoco Gold rebadge) also has the client software that needs to have a default mode.. The rest of the story is that the client manager should NOT be running while stumbling, or it will try to log into networks it sees. In fact I never run the client software unless I need to change the settings (like from stumbling to networking). That should solve at least part of one problem.