Reclassifying Part 15 Devices as Part 97. Any Hams Out There?

tomcat69 · 09-24-2002

Hi there.

I did a search, but I can't seem to come up with any information on this.

Is there any 802.11b users out there that have reclassified their Part 15 Wireless Ethernet equipment as Part 97 Amateur Radio Equipment? I am eager to hear from anyone using the ham radio overlap on the first 6 channels or so to establish wide-area networks using 802.11b.

Some of the information I've been reading is here: http://www.qsl.net/kb9mwr/projects/w...rnet_GBPPR.pdf

FCC regulations permit up to 100 watts on the ham radio overlap. I am just curious to hear if anyone has run expanded power or have networks operating with IDs similar to the way the GBPPR paper has it set up. According to FCC regulations, ham radio operators have preferential treatment on these channels, except for industrial, scientific, and medical purposes.

Anyone?

Brian
N0QVC

carbolic · 09-24-2002

This is very interesting. I heard about this, and would like to look into it when I have a few extra minutes in the day.

Thanks for the PDF, it seems to cover a lot of the issues.

-carbolic

astcell · 09-24-2002

100 watts, that ought to punch through a few pine trees.

carbolic · 09-24-2002

The scary part is that's 10% of the power microwave ovens transmit. ouchy.

"Hot stuff, comin' through!"
- Burly Steel Worker at The Anvil, The Simpsons

astcell · 09-24-2002

I have an old microwave here, the turntable will not turn. How can I hook up my PDA and Orinoco gold to it to get the 1000 watts out of it? Will ministumbler then pick up the other microwave ovens in the area?

Thorn · 09-25-2002

Quote:

Originally posted by astcell
I have an old microwave here, the turntable will not turn. How can I hook up my PDA and Orinoco gold to it to get the 1000 watts out of it? Will ministumbler then pick up the other microwave ovens in the area?

I can see it now:
Police in So. California today discovered a large number of dead birds, and one dead hacker.

"The guy looked cooked." said one responding officer.

Speculation arouse as to whether another suicide cult was again setting up operations in California, owning to some printouts found near the body which mentioned the "Reformed Church of WiFi."

The state Attorney General was quoted as saying "I don't know who this WiFi guy is, but he'd better think twice about setting up a cult here."

blackwave · 09-25-2002

Quote:

Originally posted by Thorn
"Reformed Church of WiFi."

The state Attorney General was quoted as saying "I don't know who this WiFi guy is, but he'd better think twice about setting up a cult here."

There can only be on true Church of WiFi the Reformed Church of WiFi was a splinter group that only wanted to wear robes and wear antennas on their heads while flashing old ladies... the best cults remain secret

Daveoh · 09-25-2002

If an individual was to run on ham regs they must also consider there can be no encryption nor can there be any (code) so everything must be in clear and anyone can use it... Ham radio has always been a standard setting hobby .. however recently you have had people come into the hobby and just be appliance operators .. I am somewhat guilty of that myself having entered into it via the no code tech... prior to the slimming down of the classes of operation.. anyway back operating you must also id your network or any repeater or conversation every ten minutes... good luck..

Thorn · 09-25-2002

Quote:

Originally posted by Daveoh
If an individual was to run on ham regs they must also consider there can be no encryption nor can there be any (code) so everything must be in clear and anyone can use it... Ham radio has always been a standard setting hobby .. however recently you have had people come into the hobby and just be appliance operators .. I am somewhat guilty of that myself having entered into it via the no code tech... prior to the slimming down of the classes of operation.. anyway back operating you must also id your network or any repeater or conversation every ten minutes... good luck..

The restrictions on the Part 97 have kept me from bothering with it; I'll just stick with the regular Part 15.

As to a "no code tech", me too!

Novilio · 09-26-2002

Quote:

Originally posted by tomcat69

According to FCC regulations, ham radio operators have preferential treatment on these channels, except for industrial, scientific, and medical purposes.

Brian
N0QVC

It's useful to remember that *we* are among those industrial, medical, and scientific purposes, as I understand the legalese. So are microwave ovens and 2.4 GHz cordless phones. Amateur radio is a secondary allocation to Wi-Fi on Wi-Fi frequencies. If they interfere with us, they're the ones that have to move.

This doesn't bother me; I've been a ham for 29 years, and at some point I may look into what hams call packet radio using Wi-Fi gear. Hams have a lot more freedom to tweak and futz the equipment, and in truth I'd rather move down to where amateur radio doesn't overlap Wi-Fi. If some time ever opens up (and I'm with carbolic on that) I'd actually prefer to put together an ATV (amateur television) setup on 2.4 GHz. Gear for that is cheap and easy; see http://www.4atv.com/atvprod.htm

100W of microwaves is pretty scary stuff. If I do go there I'm sticking with 1W or less.

--73--

--Novilio

ted · 10-08-2002

I have to strongly agree about the scaryness of 100 W at 2.4 GHz. There is another thread also talking about WiFi jamming with a microwave oven -- door removed etc...

Folks, the mW level transmissions of "normal" 802.11b systems are generally considered pretty harmless. There MIGHT be some obscure long term effects even by such low power radiation, but personally I feel the risks are very low.

The story is completely different when the power level is in several watts, or tens...hundreds of watts. One known and well documented effect is damage to reproductive organs; radar guys make first only girls, then get no more of any kind.

The other obvious effect is heating. Some parts of human body are very heat sensitive--so far I know eyeballs are specially at risk, because they have very little cooling by blood circulation.

At several ten W and more any part of body is in great danger. I have myself burned my fingers on a 450 MHz, 15 W rig, and at 2.4 GHz the radiation is absorbed by water in tissues so much better.

I would consider <100 mW pretty safe, 1W "nearly" safe--one should practice reasonable care and avoid close exposure. Already at 3..10 W I would be extremely careful, specially with directive antennas. To use 100 W (or 1kW!) for anything would mean adoption of safety standards from radar professionals, inclusive monitoring of leakages from cables etc. Personally I would not go there at all.

kb9mwr · 08-15-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by Novilio

It's useful to remember that *we* are among those industrial, medical, and scientific purposes, as I understand the legalese. So are microwave ovens and 2.4 GHz cordless phones. Amateur radio is a secondary allocation to Wi-Fi on Wi-Fi frequencies. If they interfere with us, they're the ones that have to move.

This is incorrect.

Microwave ovens are Part 18 ISM devices (unlicenced)
Shrink wrappers are Part 18 ISM devices (unlicensed)
2.4 GHz Cordless Phones are Part 15 devices (unlicenced)
Standard WI-FI is Part 15 (unlicenced)
Ham Radio is Part 97 (licenced)

Yes ISM is primary, amateur radio is secondary.

Unlicensed Part 15 users may not cause harmful interference to primary or secondary services and also may not claim protection from either.

Therefore Wi-Fi may not interfere with Part 97 ham radio opperations.

http://www.qsl.net/kb9mwr/projects/w...locations.html

agentgrn · 08-16-2004

On the 100 watt limit...that's 100 watts EIRP...which is the effective radiated power. In short, no 24db antennas with a 100 watt linear behind it.

If I had the reference here, I'd happily put together an example...but I don't keep the wireless bookshelf at work. In short, you need to add up all the losses and gains, plus your input power to arrive at an effective radiated power.

Having given it some though, wouldn't you need to put your callsign in the SSID for the data transmission as well?

kleptophobiac · 08-16-2004

If I recall correctly, the FCC has deemed web pages to not be part of suitable transmissions by hams.... so you'd need to keep it to pretty strict data standards.

I also am a no code technician, in just before the revamp.

King_Ice_Flash · 08-16-2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by kleptophobiac

If I recall correctly, the FCC has deemed web pages to not be part of suitable transmissions by hams.... so you'd need to keep it to pretty strict data standards.

I also am a no code technician, in just before the revamp.

Ok, just as long as nascar racing traffic is alright.

09-24-2002	#1 (permalink)
tomcat69 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9	Reclassifying Part 15 Devices as Part 97. Any Hams Out There? Hi there. I did a search, but I can't seem to come up with any information on this. Is there any 802.11b users out there that have reclassified their Part 15 Wireless Ethernet equipment as Part 97 Amateur Radio Equipment? I am eager to hear from anyone using the ham radio overlap on the first 6 channels or so to establish wide-area networks using 802.11b. Some of the information I've been reading is here: http://www.qsl.net/kb9mwr/projects/w...rnet_GBPPR.pdf FCC regulations permit up to 100 watts on the ham radio overlap. I am just curious to hear if anyone has run expanded power or have networks operating with IDs similar to the way the GBPPR paper has it set up. According to FCC regulations, ham radio operators have preferential treatment on these channels, except for industrial, scientific, and medical purposes. Anyone? Brian N0QVC

09-24-2002	#2 (permalink)
carbolic Move Zig Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 107	Wattage This is very interesting. I heard about this, and would like to look into it when I have a few extra minutes in the day. Thanks for the PDF, it seems to cover a lot of the issues. -carbolic __________________ www.SoCalWUG.org

09-24-2002	#4 (permalink)
carbolic Move Zig Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 107	Scary The scary part is that's 10% of the power microwave ovens transmit. ouchy. "Hot stuff, comin' through!" - Burly Steel Worker at The Anvil, The Simpsons __________________ www.SoCalWUG.org

09-25-2002	#8 (permalink)
Daveoh Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: IN. Posts: 11	Ham radio If an individual was to run on ham regs they must also consider there can be no encryption nor can there be any (code) so everything must be in clear and anyone can use it... Ham radio has always been a standard setting hobby .. however recently you have had people come into the hobby and just be appliance operators .. I am somewhat guilty of that myself having entered into it via the no code tech... prior to the slimming down of the classes of operation.. anyway back operating you must also id your network or any repeater or conversation every ten minutes... good luck..

10-08-2002	#11 (permalink)
ted Stumbling on Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Houston,TX Posts: 47	I have to strongly agree about the scaryness of 100 W at 2.4 GHz. There is another thread also talking about WiFi jamming with a microwave oven -- door removed etc... Folks, the mW level transmissions of "normal" 802.11b systems are generally considered pretty harmless. There MIGHT be some obscure long term effects even by such low power radiation, but personally I feel the risks are very low. The story is completely different when the power level is in several watts, or tens...hundreds of watts. One known and well documented effect is damage to reproductive organs; radar guys make first only girls, then get no more of any kind. The other obvious effect is heating. Some parts of human body are very heat sensitive--so far I know eyeballs are specially at risk, because they have very little cooling by blood circulation. At several ten W and more any part of body is in great danger. I have myself burned my fingers on a 450 MHz, 15 W rig, and at 2.4 GHz the radiation is absorbed by water in tissues so much better. I would consider <100 mW pretty safe, 1W "nearly" safe--one should practice reasonable care and avoid close exposure. Already at 3..10 W I would be extremely careful, specially with directive antennas. To use 100 W (or 1kW!) for anything would mean adoption of safety standards from radar professionals, inclusive monitoring of leakages from cables etc. Personally I would not go there at all. __________________ "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, 1759

09-24-2002	#3 (permalink)
astcell Stumbling Stumbler Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Southern CA Posts: 589	100 watts, that ought to punch through a few pine trees.

09-24-2002	#5 (permalink)
astcell Stumbling Stumbler Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Southern CA Posts: 589	I have an old microwave here, the turntable will not turn. How can I hook up my PDA and Orinoco gold to it to get the 1000 watts out of it? Will ministumbler then pick up the other microwave ovens in the area?

08-16-2004	#13 (permalink)
agentgrn KB1JQO - Packin' Heat Join Date: May 2002 Location: Worcester, MA Posts: 517	100 watts! On the 100 watt limit...that's 100 watts EIRP...which is the effective radiated power. In short, no 24db antennas with a 100 watt linear behind it. If I had the reference here, I'd happily put together an example...but I don't keep the wireless bookshelf at work. In short, you need to add up all the losses and gains, plus your input power to arrive at an effective radiated power. Having given it some though, wouldn't you need to put your callsign in the SSID for the data transmission as well? __________________ -A.G.-

08-16-2004	#14 (permalink)
kleptophobiac Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 310	If I recall correctly, the FCC has deemed web pages to not be part of suitable transmissions by hams.... so you'd need to keep it to pretty strict data standards. I also am a no code technician, in just before the revamp.

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