WISP design in RV park.... your opinions greatly valued

mahkook · 01-23-2003

Ever hear the saying..... enough knowledge to be dangerous, but not enough to know what the hell your doing? Well, that's me....

Here is my situation: I own and operate an "over 55" RV and mobile home park on the southern Oregon coast. There are 70 RV sites and 50 mobile home sites in two distinct sections. There are so many old foggies here online that it is obscene. I have become the resident computer geek. I came up with the bright idea of setting up a commercial cable modem line into the park and becoming a WISP for tenants after checking phone lines one day and discovering that there were a lot of people online. I did a questionare and found that I have enough interested people in this service to make it feasable (starting with 10-12, probably max of 18-20)
I purchased a dlink 614+ router the other day to start with. I chose dlink because of their dedicated repeater units that I may have to go with. This will ONLY be an internet access service, so I only need to have a max signal of 1.5 mbit (?) There are NO 802.11b setup people in this town, and so here is where I need your help. I have done a lot of reading about antennas and understand them pretty well. What the postings and FAQ's don't have is real world experience with antenna setups that would aid me in coverage and selecting the proper amount of dB boost needed.
Each section is approx a square 10 acre lot with about a max distance of 650 feet line of sight to the farthest unit from the center of each. In the mobile home section, there is are a few scattered pine trees (single trees, nothing dense). In the RV section it is clear, but I am facing the thin aluminum body on some RV's. The modem and router is going to be located at my house which is located off to the side more or less between both lots. I could go with an omni off the house ( pole height is no obsticle, but more trees around my house and a max distance of almost 1000 feet to farthest unit) or use yagi's to go to central points in each lot (clear line of sight) and set up a dlink repeater with an omni there. I would experiment, but all my equiptment is going to be mail order as I live in HICKville (not that that is a bad thing) with NO good supply stores other than feed and grain. That would be timely and costly. (I consider myself a redneck by the way with the farmers tan to prove it!!)
To sum it up, what layout would you create? Type and strength of antenna suggestions would be a BIG help. Even stories of your experience with something like this is useful. I would like to keep the tenants costs minimal as well so if a bigger power antenna by me would mean that they can have a plain pc card unit or PCI with it's dinky antenna rather than have to wire up an external antenna on rigs or houses, that would help.
Thanks in advance for listening to my problems and hopefully throwing in your two bits worth. Just think, you will be making a whole lot of geriatrics VERY happy! BTW I'm the youngin here at 29....

If anyone would like to send them a map of the park to get a better picture of things, I can email it to you. alderacresrv@juno.com

Ryan (mahkook)

Madhadder · 01-23-2003

Sounds like a fun project...

Start with 1 AP. with an Omni, Antt. at your house.
Once installed, grab a notebook and a copy of NS.
Go walk around with the laptop and look how strong
the signal is in the areas you want to cover. See if
there are any dead zones and work from there.

From what you mentioned, it sounds like you may need
more than 1 AP to cover the area. It would be helpfull if
you could send us a picture of the property layout, if
you have one.

Thorn · 01-23-2003

Depending on the actual layout, two sectors antennae, one pointing to each lot, might be a better design.

mahkook · 01-23-2003

I just figured out how to attach a pic to my posting. Attached is a picture of the park. My house is the origination point of the two solid red lines which show line of sight to positions for repeaters. The dashed red line shows the farthest distance on the RV park to cover. The blue circles are at the RV park clubhouse and a tenants house, both locations I could mount antennas and equipment. I guess both areas need to cover around a 700 ft radius to be safe. Green areas show trees. My house is elevated above the rest of the park by about 6 feet on a small hill. The map isn't perfect, but should be good enough for this. If you could recommend a size of antenna and maybe other ideas to help, I would appreciate it! There is an omni antenna closing on ebay in just a little that I'm eyeballing. Thanks in advance.

Ryan
Mahkook

PS: I'm a little fuzzy on this one: If I have a higher power antenna on the router, does the power help both boost outgoing signal AND pull in (weak?) signal from the individual computers, or is it only one way strength?

Thorn · 01-23-2003

Stay way from an onmi. Otherwise your sending half your signal all out the back. A 180º sector on your house would probably be perfect. I doubt you would need repeaters for this small an area.

Gain works both ways.

mahkook · 01-23-2003

That sounds good, but what strengh (db) of antenna do you think would cover that area?

Thanks
Ryan
Mahkook

Thorn · 01-23-2003

Anywhere from 4 to 10dBm would be adequate, I'd think. Depends somewhat on what you're going to use for a CPE. You'll need to do the math based on the furthest CPE on each end, and the CPE specs.

Just curious, are you going to sell the CPE? Rent it? And how are you going to charge for the service?

You've got something of a hybrid business model here, because it is a semi-permanent/semi-transient target demographic. Much shorter stay than the average WISP, but much longer than a Hotspot.

mahkook · 01-23-2003

Ok, this might seem a silly question, but what is a CPE? I did a search for the term and didn't find an answer. Give me a definition and then I can work this one out.

This service is going to be mostly to monthly tenants who are here for long stays.... most are pretty much permanent. I am going to charge $20 a month based on the starting estimate of 10-12 subs to cover service charges for the business line. Break even at that price, but I get broadband for free

. I hope to grow it a bit. I am also going to sell the service as a nightly rental to nightly tenants. ($4 for a USB unit rental, $4 a night for service, $50 refundable deposit) The demand is there by the ever growing number of computer savy seniors. That and any growth will be my profit to pay for more woodshop tools......... Also the park makes out by having one more reason to stay here and that means more rents.

one new question: what height to place the antenna(s)... trees are about 45 feet tall if I don't have repeaters.

Thanks!
Ryan
Mahkook

Thorn · 01-23-2003

CPE is "Consumer Premises Equipment." Originally a Telco term, I think. Fancy way of saying "The gizmo you give the user so they can use your service." In your case the CPE is some sort of USB device.

Depending on how thick the trees are, it might not be too bad even shooting through them. I'd think a mast of 20 to 40' AGL (Above Ground Level) would be good. You don't want to get too high, as you'll shoot over the park.

Get sectors that have mechanical downtilt mechanisms, too.

Repeaters can pose their own problems so best to avoid them if possible.

mahkook · 01-23-2003

That makes sense.

I just did some calculations dividing 40 sq acres up and finding the maximum distance from the center of that square. I was WAY off.... turns out to be around 930 feet that I *may* have to span.

lets say I go with a 25 foot mast and I do live where there is the occasional lighting strike, I guess I should invest in an arrestor. My most recent thinking is to go with a "D-Link Starter Kit w/15 dBi Omni and 50' LMR Cable" from Fab-corp. so that if I get to expand into the back 20 acres some day sooner than later, I won't have to rework the equiptment. Besides, I back up into the local watershed and it is all forest land for miles behind me.

As for avoiding repeaters, if I forgo any thought of them, would you recommend a different router? I see a lot of reference to Linksys and they have a matching amp unit that caught my attention. Linksys or D-link? something else like orinoco? you guys have MUCH more experience working with these units and since I am not yet comitted to my Dlink I am open to suggestions. I would like to do this right and not be regretting what is going to probably be around a grand invested into this venture when I am done.

Thanks again!
Ryan
Mahkook

MarcusJClifford · 01-24-2003

Seen as how you will be charging for the service I would recommend a Cisco 350 (352) Series Access Point, or perhaps an Orinoco.

Im sure Thorn would agree with me that Orinoco / Cisco equiptment is better then "consumer / SOHO" equiptment like D-Link / Linksys / Netgear etc.

The Cisco / Orinoco equiptment is more expensive, but you get what you pay for.

Also try to go for an Access point that used Power over Ethernet, that way you can mount your access point much closer to the antenna and so reduce loss. You can run Ethernet for 100 Meters.

$20 a month at 10 Subs is $200 so over a year you will take in ~ $2400, but if the service is poor then people will not want it. It is best to spend the money initially and get the rewards later.

Thorn · 01-24-2003

MarcusJClifford is absolutely correct. Get the better grade equipment. I like ORiNOCO for these things, but I've not used a Cisco. PoE is usually a good idea, too.

On additional problem with the low end stuff, is that they tend to max out at round 30 associations. You don't want this thing bombing out when all these people are doing loading pics of the grandkids at 6PM. The next thing you know they'd all be advancing slowy toward your house... All of them groaning, "WiFi! We want out WiFi!"*

Seriously, get the better equipment. If you can't afford it now, plan on it once you hit the point when you have 20+ customers.

*Disclaimer: I'm not picking on grandparents here. I am the grandfather of two. IMHO, the cutest two kids. I'm not old enough to get in the park, however.

Let me tell you about my grandkids... (Insert cute, but over-long and ultimately boring story about kids here.)

nashr · 01-24-2003

I see your nice diagram of the park layout, but I didn't see anyone ask about the layout of your park. If you go to www.topozone.com I think you can put in your location and get a topographical display of your park. Then the brains here can make certain you won't have any LOS issues (Line Of Site).

Good luck, and please let us know how it goes!

Tron Of Borg · 01-26-2003

I recommend the Orinoco (or the generics) because they have greater signal sensitivity. More simply, they can hear you when other radios can't. This can translate to less $ output by you for amps (not that you'd ever need one here) and antennas.

For your AP, you could go with a Cisco 350 AP at 100mw (shouts louder but doesn't hear as well) or you can go with an AP that uses the Ornioco radio that doesn't talk as loud but can hear really well.

If you want to build your own AP, here is my shopping list.
1. Star-OS at www.star-os.com Their products are tailored for WISPs and the owner is a WISP himself. Join their forum and ask questions.
2. Orinoco/Luceint radios. With Star-OS, you can literally "dial" the distance you need to cover between points and the OS will modulate the signal accordingly.
3. A junk computer to run Star-OS w/ PCMCIA adapters for the radios. 486 or better.
4. For the AP antenna, I'd use a 180* sector at your house as mentioned earlier. This will keep your antenna cost down as you'd only need 1. Also, you don't need repeaters so you save money there. Here is a reputable antenna company: http://www.superpass.com/2400-2483M_180.html Feel free to email john at Super Pass and explain your situation. He will help you choose your antenna.

If you're really wanting to go cheap (<$150 CPE), get yourself a LinkSys WET11. I believe that DLink has something similar (in a xxx900 model) that sounds like it is more reliable. The linksys seems to need rebooting (power cycle) ever so often.

FCC REGS: Please note, building your own AP or adding external antennas to a radio could mean you are not compliant w/ the FCC and "COULD" be shut down. Obviously, you'd have to be reported/found first.

If you want a FCC legit system, then you'll have to buy kits or have someone create a kit for you and have that certified.

If you want to buy branded kits, I've used the Buffalo brand of equipment with great success. Buffalo uses the Orinoco radios.

Ultimately, you might want to join and begin reading: http://www.wispa.org lists. I do!

Tron Of Borg

seawi-fi · 02-05-2003

While a directional antenna seems right for this app, I was wondering if anyone has found an outdoor omn antenna that seems MUCH better than the others.

01-23-2003	#1 (permalink)
mahkook Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 9	WISP design in RV park.... your opinions greatly valued Ever hear the saying..... enough knowledge to be dangerous, but not enough to know what the hell your doing? Well, that's me.... Here is my situation: I own and operate an "over 55" RV and mobile home park on the southern Oregon coast. There are 70 RV sites and 50 mobile home sites in two distinct sections. There are so many old foggies here online that it is obscene. I have become the resident computer geek. I came up with the bright idea of setting up a commercial cable modem line into the park and becoming a WISP for tenants after checking phone lines one day and discovering that there were a lot of people online. I did a questionare and found that I have enough interested people in this service to make it feasable (starting with 10-12, probably max of 18-20) I purchased a dlink 614+ router the other day to start with. I chose dlink because of their dedicated repeater units that I may have to go with. This will ONLY be an internet access service, so I only need to have a max signal of 1.5 mbit (?) There are NO 802.11b setup people in this town, and so here is where I need your help. I have done a lot of reading about antennas and understand them pretty well. What the postings and FAQ's don't have is real world experience with antenna setups that would aid me in coverage and selecting the proper amount of dB boost needed. Each section is approx a square 10 acre lot with about a max distance of 650 feet line of sight to the farthest unit from the center of each. In the mobile home section, there is are a few scattered pine trees (single trees, nothing dense). In the RV section it is clear, but I am facing the thin aluminum body on some RV's. The modem and router is going to be located at my house which is located off to the side more or less between both lots. I could go with an omni off the house ( pole height is no obsticle, but more trees around my house and a max distance of almost 1000 feet to farthest unit) or use yagi's to go to central points in each lot (clear line of sight) and set up a dlink repeater with an omni there. I would experiment, but all my equiptment is going to be mail order as I live in HICKville (not that that is a bad thing) with NO good supply stores other than feed and grain. That would be timely and costly. (I consider myself a redneck by the way with the farmers tan to prove it!!) To sum it up, what layout would you create? Type and strength of antenna suggestions would be a BIG help. Even stories of your experience with something like this is useful. I would like to keep the tenants costs minimal as well so if a bigger power antenna by me would mean that they can have a plain pc card unit or PCI with it's dinky antenna rather than have to wire up an external antenna on rigs or houses, that would help. Thanks in advance for listening to my problems and hopefully throwing in your two bits worth. Just think, you will be making a whole lot of geriatrics VERY happy! BTW I'm the youngin here at 29.... If anyone would like to send them a map of the park to get a better picture of things, I can email it to you. alderacresrv@juno.com Ryan (mahkook)

01-23-2003	#3 (permalink)
Thorn Did you do the math? Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Villa Straylight Posts: 10,361	Depending on the actual layout, two sectors antennae, one pointing to each lot, might be a better design. __________________ Thorn "Read Altas Shrugged. Compare it to today. Repeat as necessary"

01-23-2003	#5 (permalink)
Thorn Did you do the math? Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Villa Straylight Posts: 10,361	Stay way from an onmi. Otherwise your sending half your signal all out the back. A 180º sector on your house would probably be perfect. I doubt you would need repeaters for this small an area. Gain works both ways. __________________ Thorn "Read Altas Shrugged. Compare it to today. Repeat as necessary"

01-23-2003	#6 (permalink)
mahkook Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 9	what size antenna? That sounds good, but what strengh (db) of antenna do you think would cover that area? Thanks Ryan Mahkook

01-23-2003	#7 (permalink)
Thorn Did you do the math? Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Villa Straylight Posts: 10,361	Anywhere from 4 to 10dBm would be adequate, I'd think. Depends somewhat on what you're going to use for a CPE. You'll need to do the math based on the furthest CPE on each end, and the CPE specs. Just curious, are you going to sell the CPE? Rent it? And how are you going to charge for the service? You've got something of a hybrid business model here, because it is a semi-permanent/semi-transient target demographic. Much shorter stay than the average WISP, but much longer than a Hotspot. __________________ Thorn "Read Altas Shrugged. Compare it to today. Repeat as necessary"

01-23-2003	#2 (permalink)
Madhadder General "Noob Basher" Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Munich, Germany Posts: 1,620	Sounds like a fun project... Start with 1 AP. with an Omni, Antt. at your house. Once installed, grab a notebook and a copy of NS. Go walk around with the laptop and look how strong the signal is in the areas you want to cover. See if there are any dead zones and work from there. From what you mentioned, it sounds like you may need more than 1 AP to cover the area. It would be helpfull if you could send us a picture of the property layout, if you have one.

01-23-2003	#8 (permalink)
mahkook Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 9	Ok, this might seem a silly question, but what is a CPE? I did a search for the term and didn't find an answer. Give me a definition and then I can work this one out. This service is going to be mostly to monthly tenants who are here for long stays.... most are pretty much permanent. I am going to charge $20 a month based on the starting estimate of 10-12 subs to cover service charges for the business line. Break even at that price, but I get broadband for free . I hope to grow it a bit. I am also going to sell the service as a nightly rental to nightly tenants. ($4 for a USB unit rental, $4 a night for service, $50 refundable deposit) The demand is there by the ever growing number of computer savy seniors. That and any growth will be my profit to pay for more woodshop tools......... Also the park makes out by having one more reason to stay here and that means more rents. one new question: what height to place the antenna(s)... trees are about 45 feet tall if I don't have repeaters. Thanks! Ryan Mahkook

01-23-2003	#9 (permalink)
Thorn Did you do the math? Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Villa Straylight Posts: 10,361	CPE is "Consumer Premises Equipment." Originally a Telco term, I think. Fancy way of saying "The gizmo you give the user so they can use your service." In your case the CPE is some sort of USB device. Depending on how thick the trees are, it might not be too bad even shooting through them. I'd think a mast of 20 to 40' AGL (Above Ground Level) would be good. You don't want to get too high, as you'll shoot over the park. Get sectors that have mechanical downtilt mechanisms, too. Repeaters can pose their own problems so best to avoid them if possible. __________________ Thorn "Read Altas Shrugged. Compare it to today. Repeat as necessary"

01-23-2003	#10 (permalink)
mahkook Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 9	That makes sense. I just did some calculations dividing 40 sq acres up and finding the maximum distance from the center of that square. I was WAY off.... turns out to be around 930 feet that I may have to span. lets say I go with a 25 foot mast and I do live where there is the occasional lighting strike, I guess I should invest in an arrestor. My most recent thinking is to go with a "D-Link Starter Kit w/15 dBi Omni and 50' LMR Cable" from Fab-corp. so that if I get to expand into the back 20 acres some day sooner than later, I won't have to rework the equiptment. Besides, I back up into the local watershed and it is all forest land for miles behind me. As for avoiding repeaters, if I forgo any thought of them, would you recommend a different router? I see a lot of reference to Linksys and they have a matching amp unit that caught my attention. Linksys or D-link? something else like orinoco? you guys have MUCH more experience working with these units and since I am not yet comitted to my Dlink I am open to suggestions. I would like to do this right and not be regretting what is going to probably be around a grand invested into this venture when I am done. Thanks again! Ryan Mahkook

01-24-2003	#11 (permalink)
MarcusJClifford United Kingdom User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: London, UK Posts: 130	Seen as how you will be charging for the service I would recommend a Cisco 350 (352) Series Access Point, or perhaps an Orinoco. Im sure Thorn would agree with me that Orinoco / Cisco equiptment is better then "consumer / SOHO" equiptment like D-Link / Linksys / Netgear etc. The Cisco / Orinoco equiptment is more expensive, but you get what you pay for. Also try to go for an Access point that used Power over Ethernet, that way you can mount your access point much closer to the antenna and so reduce loss. You can run Ethernet for 100 Meters. $20 a month at 10 Subs is $200 so over a year you will take in ~ $2400, but if the service is poor then people will not want it. It is best to spend the money initially and get the rewards later. __________________ Orinoco Gold, Mobile Mark 5 DBi Mag Mount, Belkin WAP, 4x D-Link 1500 WAP / Bridges, 2x 24Dbi Parabolics, 1 12Db Omnidirectional.

01-24-2003	#12 (permalink)
Thorn Did you do the math? Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Villa Straylight Posts: 10,361	MarcusJClifford is absolutely correct. Get the better grade equipment. I like ORiNOCO for these things, but I've not used a Cisco. PoE is usually a good idea, too. On additional problem with the low end stuff, is that they tend to max out at round 30 associations. You don't want this thing bombing out when all these people are doing loading pics of the grandkids at 6PM. The next thing you know they'd all be advancing slowy toward your house... All of them groaning, "WiFi! We want out WiFi!"* Seriously, get the better equipment. If you can't afford it now, plan on it once you hit the point when you have 20+ customers. Disclaimer: I'm not picking on grandparents here. I am the grandfather of two. IMHO, the cutest two kids. I'm not old enough to get in the park, however. Let me tell you about my grandkids... (Insert cute, but over-long and ultimately boring story about kids here.) __________________ Thorn "Read Altas Shrugged*. Compare it to today. Repeat as necessary"

01-24-2003	#13 (permalink)
nashr Uber Geek Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,624	Other considerations I see your nice diagram of the park layout, but I didn't see anyone ask about the layout of your park. If you go to www.topozone.com I think you can put in your location and get a topographical display of your park. Then the brains here can make certain you won't have any LOS issues (Line Of Site). Good luck, and please let us know how it goes! __________________ Help! I've been Simpsonized!

01-26-2003	#14 (permalink)
Tron Of Borg Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 47	Equipment. I recommend the Orinoco (or the generics) because they have greater signal sensitivity. More simply, they can hear you when other radios can't. This can translate to less $ output by you for amps (not that you'd ever need one here) and antennas. For your AP, you could go with a Cisco 350 AP at 100mw (shouts louder but doesn't hear as well) or you can go with an AP that uses the Ornioco radio that doesn't talk as loud but can hear really well. If you want to build your own AP, here is my shopping list. 1. Star-OS at www.star-os.com Their products are tailored for WISPs and the owner is a WISP himself. Join their forum and ask questions. 2. Orinoco/Luceint radios. With Star-OS, you can literally "dial" the distance you need to cover between points and the OS will modulate the signal accordingly. 3. A junk computer to run Star-OS w/ PCMCIA adapters for the radios. 486 or better. 4. For the AP antenna, I'd use a 180* sector at your house as mentioned earlier. This will keep your antenna cost down as you'd only need 1. Also, you don't need repeaters so you save money there. Here is a reputable antenna company: http://www.superpass.com/2400-2483M_180.html Feel free to email john at Super Pass and explain your situation. He will help you choose your antenna. If you're really wanting to go cheap (<$150 CPE), get yourself a LinkSys WET11. I believe that DLink has something similar (in a xxx900 model) that sounds like it is more reliable. The linksys seems to need rebooting (power cycle) ever so often. FCC REGS: Please note, building your own AP or adding external antennas to a radio could mean you are not compliant w/ the FCC and "COULD" be shut down. Obviously, you'd have to be reported/found first. If you want a FCC legit system, then you'll have to buy kits or have someone create a kit for you and have that certified. If you want to buy branded kits, I've used the Buffalo brand of equipment with great success. Buffalo uses the Orinoco radios. Ultimately, you might want to join and begin reading: http://www.wispa.org lists. I do! Tron Of Borg __________________ Tron Of Borg

02-05-2003	#15 (permalink)
seawi-fi Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1	omni antenna While a directional antenna seems right for this app, I was wondering if anyone has found an outdoor omn antenna that seems MUCH better than the others.

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