USB GPS Mouse - Question

Postby The_Denv » Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:17 pm

Airstreamer wrote:Because it's that time of the month! Duh!

Airstreamer, there is no reason to get on like that.

Thorn wrote:NetStumbler and Kismet will both only record the location of the GPS unit when the find an AP. So, "yes, you can use a it with a yagi", but all you'll get is the location of your house, since that's where you are located. The information would be without value.

Most people get the laptop first, and then the GPS. A GPS mouse without a laptop is pretty useless.


I cant seem to understand how wardrivers are able to use a GPS with an antenna to pin-point the location of the AP. I thought if I hooked the USB GPS and the USB WiFi with the YAGI connected while using NetStumbler/Kismet I could do the same.

I thought it was as basic as installing the hardware and use programs that give you access to both letting the YAGI to be used as a scanner to calculate how far away the AP is from my co-ordinates shown by my GPS, then add the distance from the AP to the YAGI via the GPS to show me the results within NetStumbler/Kismet.

So your saying I cant do this if I am in my house, even with the GPS attached to the outside of my house wall [2nd floor]?

Dutch wrote: Concurred with Thorn, altough a GPS mouse (with a clear view to the sky) attached to a server or desktop machine is a costeffective way of setting up a NTP server on the network. Just make sure you can get PPS output from it, or your precision won't be better than +/- 1 second.


I don't really need a Time server [daytime], but with PPS are you referring to Packets Per Second? If so, can I configure this within a Windows console? I've got BackTrack aswell if need be.

Thanks for everyone's feedback, Im baffled by this.
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Postby theprez98 » Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:19 pm

The_Denv wrote:I cant seem to understand how wardrivers are able to use a GPS with an antenna to pin-point the location of the AP. I thought if I hooked the USB GPS and the USB WiFi with the YAGI connected while using NetStumbler/Kismet I could so the same.

NetStumbler or Kismet records the position of the GPS when you find the AP. So you can't really "pin-point" the location of an AP. The best you're going to do is find a spot on the street in front of the house.
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Postby Dutch » Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:25 pm

The_Denv wrote:Airstreamer, there is no reason to get on like that.



I cant seem to understand how wardrivers are able to use a GPS with an antenna to pin-point the location of the AP. I thought if I hooked the USB GPS and the USB WiFi with the YAGI connected while using NetStumbler/Kismet I could so the same.

So your saying I cant do this if I am in my house, even with the GPS attached to the outside of my house wall [2nd floor]?



I don't really need a Time server [daytime], but with PPS are you referring to Packets Per Second? If so, can I configure this within a Windows console? I've got BackTrack aswell if need be.

Thanks

PPS wrt GPS's has nothing to do with Packets Per Second. It stands for Pulse Per Second, a pulse signal that can be used to discipline the system clock to a high degree of precision, typically to the order less than 10 ms in time and 0.01 parts-per-million (PPM) in frequency, in sync with the atomic caesium clocks aboard the GPS Sats. Most NTP server software whether for Windows or *nix, that can use a GPS as a timesource, can utilize PPS signalling to discipline the time status.

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Postby Airstreamer » Mon Jan 22, 2007 3:43 pm

The_Denv wrote:Airstreamer, there is no reason to get on like that.


I was responding in that vein due to your overall lack of punctuation, grammar, spelling and poor composition.

In the words of the immortal Bender: "Bite my shiny metal ass."

Now with that out of the way, if you take a gander around at Wigle.net, it may give you some ideas as to what can be done with a slew of data points that contain the signal strength and the GPS coords of where the reading(s) were taken. They then invoke some home brew software analysis to get a rough location of where the AP actually is, (provided there is enough data.)
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Postby itsnotme » Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:32 pm

The_Denv wrote:Airstreamer, there is no reason to get on like that.



I cant seem to understand how wardrivers are able to use a GPS with an antenna to pin-point the location of the AP. I thought if I hooked the USB GPS and the USB WiFi with the YAGI connected while using NetStumbler/Kismet I could do the same.

I thought it was as basic as installing the hardware and use programs that give you access to both letting the YAGI to be used as a scanner to calculate how far away the AP is from my co-ordinates shown by my GPS, then add the distance from the AP to the YAGI via the GPS to show me the results within NetStumbler/Kismet.

So your saying I cant do this if I am in my house, even with the GPS attached to the outside of my house wall [2nd floor]?



I don't really need a Time server [daytime], but with PPS are you referring to Packets Per Second? If so, can I configure this within a Windows console? I've got BackTrack aswell if need be.

Thanks for everyone's feedback, Im baffled by this.


From your post, I think you need to take baby steps in the computer world.

#1, Locating things by GPS requires triangulation, so only using one GPS to locate an AP kind of should tell you that it aint happening? The GPS is just there to mark where it was when it encountered the AP, not where the AP is. You're confusing yourself more than anybody else ever can. (Wait, I think we probably could confuse you enough to make you run home to mom, but I think we're not going to do that.)

#2, Thanks for having everybody else teach me something new today, I didn't know about PPS until now.
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Postby The_Denv » Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:42 pm

Airstreamer, having correct grammer/spelling etc is essential although sometimes people can be a bit extreme. This is not an assignment man. Airstreamer, apart from the blunt comments your information was very useful thanks.

Dutch, thanks man for the PPS walkthrough, I learn something new everyday. :)

itsnotme, man your talking to me as if I have only discovered computing. Ive been studying computers for 8 years, I just don't know anything about GPS recievers/devices and its form of communication and config.

Triangulation, the words frightens me but its really easy to understand. I read a thread within this forum about adding Kismet files to Google Earth, the triangulation from the APs were visable and it looks like the perfect thing Im after.

It would be good for someone who knows how to program to make a program to convert the signal strength of an AP into meters and then use your coords from the GPS to calculate exactly where the AP was [given that you circle the AP in a 360 degree angle first].

That paragraph above is a bit far fetched...but to me it sounds possible if an expert in programming took the idea on board they could have success. All it is, is convertions, coords and basic math...and 'Triangulation'. Hopefully noone reads this and thinks its the exact same thing that was described to me because its not...it doesnt estimate. Good idea I think.

[Remember, I used GPS for the first time today...Im new to it dont be so harsh]
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Postby streaker69 » Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:47 pm

The_Denv wrote:Airstreamer, having correct grammer/spelling etc is essential although sometimes people can be a bit extreme. This is not an assignment man. Airstreamer, apart from the blunt comments your information was very useful thanks.

Dutch, thanks man for the PPS walkthrough, I learn something new everyday. :)

itsnotme, man your talking to me as if I have only discovered computing. Ive been studying computers for 8 years, I just don't know anything about GPS recievers/devices and its form of communication and config.

Triangulation, the words frightens me but its really easy to understand. I read a thread within this forum about adding Kismet files to Google Earth, the triangulation from the APs were visable and it looks like the perfect thing Im after.

It would be good for someone who knows how to program to make a program to convert the signal strength of an AP into meters and then use your coords from the GPS to calculate exactly where the AP was [given that you circle the AP in a 360 degree angle first].

That paragraph above is a bit far fetched...but to me it sounds possible if an expert in programming took the idea on board they could have success. All it is, is convertions, coords and basic math...and 'Triangulation'. Hopefully noone reads this and thinks its the exact same thing that was described to me because its not...it doesnt estimate. Good idea I think.

[Remember, I used GPS for the first time today...Im new to it dont be so harsh]


You're by no means the first person to think that you can write some magic formula to triangulate based upon signal strength. But since you have no idea what that signal is passing through before it gets to you, plus you have to deal with multi-path and reflection the chances of getting anything even close to accurate is about the same chance of G8t not swearing on any given day.

In case you missed the rules of the forum, spelling, proper grammar and capitalization DO count here. We don't tolerate laziness in writing. If you're going to post here, you're going to write like an adult or you're not going to write here. It's that simple, same rules the rest of us follow.
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Postby itsnotme » Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:58 pm

The_Denv wrote:itsnotme, man your talking to me as if I have only discovered computing. Ive been studying computers for 8 years, I just don't know anything about GPS recievers/devices and its form of communication and config.


Wow, 8 years and you didn't learn how to search?
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Postby Scruge » Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:01 am

The_Denv wrote:Triangulation, the words frightens me but its really easy to understand. Good idea I think.

I think you're casually dismissing the main component "Tri" in Triangulation.

Meaning 2 readings taken from 2 different positions using the same directional equipment to calculate the 3rd. The accuracy will be dependent on the arc between the two readings ,a clear LOS exist between the source and recorder and the source is an omni.

It would be good for someone who knows how to program to make a program to convert the signal strength of an AP into meters and then use your coords from the GPS to calculate exactly where the AP was [given that you circle the AP in a 360 degree angle first

How would this be possible considering that objects between you and source will attenuate/modify the signal reading?
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